Bunbury’s Eighth- Sealion training for beginners

[SophocIestheFox]

Old thread nearly full!

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The useful Bunbury Guide to Spotting Community Disruptors is constantly evolving.

The best research and advice is not to engage with community disruptors and trolls. As ever, if you suspect troll activity, report it to MNHQ.

Remember there are people out there who would like to silence us by fair means or foul.

This is a continuation of the Public Service Announcement thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3944572-Bunburys-guide-to-community-disruptors-part-5?pg=40

If and when you see threads plopped into FWR, especially a curious repeat of well worn topics, maybe check for poster history before engaging. AS is your friend.

There are a number of posts/posters/threads that are reproduced on Twitter or Facebook to foment controversy using screen shots & flagging to either MNHQ to have threads or posters deleted.. Sometimes, it’s used to approach commissioning editors with ideas for articles. It’s a tiresome tactic that we always have community disruptor posters who themselves post the comments that they then highlight elsewhere as purported evidence of racism, religious intolerance, anti-men sentiments, or transphobia.

Some helpful links can be found in the ‘Break it Down for me’ and ‘It never happens’ threads but in essence FermatsTheorem recommended “that in the absence of a block/hide poster button, I suggest the following strategy (given that you're talking to the lurkers).

Do not name check the sealion. Instead, respond to a depersonalised paraphrase:

"It is sometimes erroneously suggested that blah. Blah is wrong for the following reasons (short and pithy). If you need more information re. debunking blah, here's a link."

Then (this next step is important to combat derailment) go back up thread to the last useful contribution to the discussion, make sure you do name check that contributor, and pick up the discussion from that point.”

I have a feeling that saying "Ploppers gonna plop" on an active thread would get deleted, so I've come for recipes instead. I have pomegranate molasses in the cupboard that I've only really used for salad dressing and in sparkling wine. Anything else I can bung it in?

I'm craving Dundee cake having just seen a brilliant recipe and your mention of sparkling wine.

I'm not sure if you can bung pomegranate molasses in it, but what the hell, let's live dangerously.

Gingerbread or gingercake work well with pomegranate molasses.

I've made several of the savoury recipes here and enjoyed them:

www.bbc.co.uk/food/pomegranate_molasses

I want cake.

Why don’t I have any cake?

After the week I’ve had, I’ve earned it and more. I’d also like a mute poster button.

I've come to the conclusion that if I want to talk about veganism, I won't be trying to do it while a cattle baron demands that I can't until I've talked him around into agreeing to my not eating meat. Hide thread is a good button.

My veganism is however very definitely cake inclusive.

When a group of vegans are having a chat about vegan cake recipes and a cattle baron turns up to educate us and insist we justify our veganism before we can get into the nitty gritty of date and ginger or lemon drizzle I absolutely believe we should not bother reading his posts or even the replies to his posts but just stick to the OP of vegan cake recipes.

A wise woman once said ignore them and they’ll go away. It should be easy in an online forum, it sometimes isn’t possible in real life.

They only want attention and the satisfaction of derailment or merailment. They win when we engage and give them what they crave.

What is it that the Bunbury OP recommends, go back to the last relevant post and respond to that poster, don’t @ cattle barons on vegan cake threads, don’t quote them, as DeaconBoo said S.O.B.

Let cattle barons start their own threads about the unkindness of vegans not purchasing the wares of marginalised cattle barons if that is what they want to discuss.

I absolutely understand why you value that hide thread button MichelleofzeResistance. It is a shame though that good faith posters with much to contribute are driven from every interesting and productive thread by the disruptive methods of certain types.

It is a shame though that good faith posters with much to contribute are driven from every interesting and productive thread by the disruptive methods of certain types.

It seems that it's implausibly difficult for some posters to resist replying - no matter what the research says, nor how much it derails a thread and makes it unreadable for others. I've never subscribed to the belief that it's helpful for the notional bystanding lurkers beyond a link to the 'break it down' thread and move on.

Replying hands the control of a thread to people who are consciously vandalising this forum and allowing it to be misrepresented as per the OP text.

I can't do it. I have to respond when the fundamentals of my veganism are questioned. I want everyone to understand the benefits of a meat free diet.

I know Bunbury is right. I know.

I’m just fed up that it’s enabled and allowed.

I tried vegan salted caramel ice-cream last night (Magnums).

I'm exceedingly disappointed with the salted caramel. All this time I've been hearing about it from the people who eat dairy, and I really felt it the salted caramel ice-cream interior spoilt the chocolate outer layer.

Wondering whether this is a case of the vegan version being inferior, or whether it was supposed to taste like that.

Won't be buying those again!

The trouble is though that you're defending the fundamentals of your veganism. The cattle baron sees it as a game. You're never going to convince a meat retailer to support veganism; you're never going to get any kind of respect or understanding, all you're doing is providing entertainment and furthering his contempt for your beliefs.

Frankly, life's too short.

Don't get me started on vegan easter eggs.....

I agree, the sweet stuff is frequently really grim. Home made is the way to go.

I know. I really do. But if I could just ram a few delicious vegan muffins in the beef barons smarmy little face, it might show some vegetarians that plant based is the only way. I will do better in future.

I have pomegranate molasses in the cupboard that I've only really used for salad dressing and in sparkling wine. Anything else I can bung it in?

I only ever use pomegranate molasses in Persian lamb. I don’t have a recipe as my friend taught me the recipe and I do it by eye and taste. Not a very helpful post, I know, but there may be similar recipes online.

I think I liked the co-op's vegan egg last year. I'm undecided about Moo-free eggs, but I like their fake white chocolate bar. Really creamy texture.

Thanks for the pointers! Will check out the links.

I'm not a vegan but I bought Bouga Bouja chocolates for a vegan friend and was converted they don't taste 'vegan' just like bloody good chocolates

@MichelleofzeResistance

The trouble is though that you're defending the fundamentals of your veganism. The cattle baron sees it as a game. You're never going to convince a meat retailer to support veganism; you're never going to get any kind of respect or understanding, all you're doing is providing entertainment and furthering his contempt for your beliefs.

Frankly, life's too short.

This.

It is a game that the cattle baron wins if he gains your time and attention and in doing so prevents you applying both more usefully elsewhere. For him this is the whole game, diversion and derailing. It leads to successful distraction from the things which actually matter. Other posters and likely many lurkers just give up reading the thread (because it becomes fragmented and boring or hostile) which is a great win for any cattle baron. After all we vegans already know why we are vegan and the point of the thread was cake. There are links to helpful threads which do explain why anyone might choose the vegan way as EmbarrassingAdmissions mentioned.

I love booja booja chocolate truffles! Absolutely delicious. Delightful morsels that the cattle baron will never know or experience.

Gish galloping is a very effective tactic. It pisses every one off, acts as a distraction, muddies the water and confuses the issues, and pushes good faith posters away. It's really the most disingenuous of acts. I suppose the only way to counter it is calm, patient dissection and pointers to factual evidence. Which we see here all the time, and I am so grateful for, knowing what a time and emotion suck they must be..

I think some MNers could probably get jobs in politics if they don't already have them.

I agree you won't likely persuade the cattle barons, as long as there is still money to be made from cattle. This won't always be the case, and may be influenced either by regulation or good old capitalist market forces. However, I do find when it comes to preparing vegan food there are basically two types of response from people, particularly chefs ... those who roll their eyes, see it as an inconvenience etc and those who see it as a challenge to rise to, to do the best they can for the vegans they encounter. I'm not quite sure where that fits in this extended metaphor but that is my experience anyway.

@ArabellaScott

Gish galloping is a very effective tactic. It pisses every one off, acts as a distraction, muddies the water and confuses the issues, and pushes good faith posters away. It's really the most disingenuous of acts. I suppose the only way to counter it is calm, patient dissection and pointers to factual evidence. Which we see here all the time, and I am so grateful for, knowing what a time and emotion suck they must be..

I think some MNers could probably get jobs in politics if they don't already have them.

I trust the research that indicates even such well-intentioned behaviour feeds and facilitates community disruption.

I note that a plop post has already garnered @ 100 responses in

Thanks, Embarrassing. It might feed the disruptor, yes, but what will the effect be on the ones that matter? By which, lurkers and those here to find information?

It might feed the disruptor, yes, but what will the effect be on the ones that matter? By which, lurkers and those here to find information?

Lurkers if interested would follow a straightforward link to 'break it down for me'/

afaict, some of the earlier references from the preamble and from previous Bunbury threads have been lost that indicates lurkers are turned off by the bunfight threads and form a poor impression of the community's ability to self-manage.

The references used to run to several posts and there was some discussion about emergent research in this arena.

I looked up Gish gallop since I was unfamiliar with the term.

From Wikipedia

“...a debater confronts an opponent with a rapid series of many specious arguments, half truths, and misrepresentations in a short space of time, which makes it impossible for the opponent to refute all of them within the format of a formal debate. In practice, each point raised by the “Gish galloper” takes a considerable amount of time to refute or fact-check than it did to state in the first place. The technique wastes an opponent’s time and may cast doubt on the opponent’s debating ability for an audience unfamiliar with the technique, especially if no independent fact checking is involved or if the audience has limited knowledge of the topics.
...the technique may be countered by pre-empting and refuting the opponent’s commonly used arguments first, before the opponent has an opportunity to launch into a Gish gallop”

However since this is an ongoing open forum online not a scheduled debate on a stage in a hall or theatre we don’t have to refute the Gish gallop we can deny it attention. If a group ignores a very vocal attention seeker and focuses instead on the point of the discussion newcomers will soon pick up on the fact that the attention seeker is being ignored and the reasons for it will become evident too.

I also came across this on Wikipedia

“The technique of sealioning has been compared to the Gish gallop and metaphorically described as a denial-of-service attack targeted at human beings.”

I would hazard a guess that many lurkers have been here for some time and know enough to not bother to continue reading a thread once community disrupters begin posting, receiving responses and in many cases successfully gain control of the thread.

Interested newcomers would gain a lot more from break it down for me, these are not our crimes and others.