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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The same as racism? Help me out please.

349 replies

talkingdeadscot · 07/02/2021 09:58

So, after yet another discussion last night, my DH said that my insistence that I would not allow a TW to perform an intimate examination at the doctors on me as akin to racism. I don't think it is but I can't articulate why. Why is my refusal to accept TWAW as discriminatory as racism? He says it's because I'm denying a minority exists and has rights. I said I'd also refuse a man but apparently TWAW so that's not the same even if I personally refuse to accept that TWAW (which I do)

Help!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 09/02/2021 14:38

And women survivors of FGM, Eresh - the abuse of Jana
Cornell on Twitter has been horrendous, hasnt it.

(I know you said it wasn’t exhaustive!)

Aha85 · 09/02/2021 14:52

To be honest, I was where your DH was about 3 years ago. I thought TWAW and that it was awful not to let them into women's bathrooms etc. I thought that all transwomen were quiet types who just wanted to get in with their lives. I thought Germaine Greer was being mean. I thought this was the next big civil rights battle and that good progressive values would triumph. I was very naive.

What changed my mind was going to a concert with a support act fronted by a "non-binary transwoman" who appeared to be making very little effort to pass and had demanded that the bathrooms be relabelled "gender neutral with urinals" and "gender neutral without urinals" which lead to lots of men being in whet had previously been the women's bathrooms even though you could peer over the cubicle walls. I finally opened my eyes and researched the issue.

The thing is though, I suspect if I was a man it would have taken me an awful lot longer to cotton on, so I don't know if your DH will ever have a similar realisation.

Surlyburd · 09/02/2021 14:59

Because BAME women are women, and transwomen are men. Theres no correlation to racism in your asking for the gynae to be female, to racism. You are perfectly within your rights to ask for a female doctor, if one is not abailable, you may have to wait for another appointment and that would be up to you.
Not wanting to have a transwomen perform an intimate exam IS NOT the same as wishing harm or dehumanising transpeople

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 09/02/2021 16:15

It has been helpful to have some outside understanding and to realise that I'm not the only person who can't and won't believe that men can be women flowers

Glad to hear, and you are most definitely not alone!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/02/2021 17:55

And women survivors of FGM, Eresh - the abuse of Jana Cornell on Twitter has been horrendous, hasnt it.

Yes, it was despicable.

BaseDrops · 09/02/2021 18:12

He did ask, could we actually stay together, could we continue in our relationship if I really thought he was a misogynist and that's what I'm trying to answer now.

I think the question is can you stay in a relationship with a man who has absolutely no empathy for your lived experiences and resulting opinions. He has empathy and support for a concept which does not impact him but none for your feelings about something that does impact you.

Faffertea · 09/02/2021 18:30

I think the question is can you stay in a relationship with a man who has absolutely no empathy for your lived experiences and resulting opinions. He has empathy and support for a concept which does not impact him but none for your feelings about something that does impact you.
^ This

MichelleofzeResistance · 09/02/2021 18:37

The part I would need clarity on is how a partner would feel I should trust him that I was safe in a relationship where he felt his views and decisions on who should touch my body came in front of mine, held greater weight and were more valid than mine. And that he had some very nasty names to associate me with in his head if I did not choose to validate another male with my body.

This isn't a theoretical word game for females. They need more than just being expected to hope that the male in the situation they are in chooses to be a good guy today.

MaudTheInvincible · 09/02/2021 19:25

I'm sorry, op. This must be awful for you. Thanks

Ultimately, he expects you to subjugate yourself and your knowledge and understanding of yourself as a woman, to some other man's idea of what you are. Everything you've gone through because of your biology, all the weight of millenia of oppression, the way women have been and are constantly exposed through art, literature and fucking page 3 to the fact of our oppression, the knowledge that you are one of the ones whose ability to play a full role in society has been and is currently curtailed because of the whims of those lucky enough to be born with a penis, is disregarded and unacknowledged by his foul claim that men can be women. I'm so angry for you.

The same as racism? Help me out please.
talkingdeadscot · 09/02/2021 20:15

@MaudTheInvincible

I'm sorry, op. This must be awful for you. Thanks

Ultimately, he expects you to subjugate yourself and your knowledge and understanding of yourself as a woman, to some other man's idea of what you are. Everything you've gone through because of your biology, all the weight of millenia of oppression, the way women have been and are constantly exposed through art, literature and fucking page 3 to the fact of our oppression, the knowledge that you are one of the ones whose ability to play a full role in society has been and is currently curtailed because of the whims of those lucky enough to be born with a penis, is disregarded and unacknowledged by his foul claim that men can be women. I'm so angry for you.

That's it, my material reality is nothing compared to his theorising and the knowledge that as a man he doesn't have to live with any consequences of the GRA.
OP posts:
CaraDuneRedux · 09/02/2021 20:30

This is going to sound like a major digression, but it isn't.

Several years ago, I read a very sad thread on here by a woman whose bloke continually belittled her intellect and tastes - in particular the fact that she only liked pop music while he, the superior intellectual type, preferred classical music. The reason it stuck with me was that my ex had been exactly the same but with the musical tastes reversed. He belittled my interest in classical music as "like painting by numbers because you only play music from sheet music written by other people" while he was the true musician because he wrote his own songs.

And it struck that the problem was not the taste, or belief, or preference, or belief-system (or lack of it). Two men, in two parallel situations, believing the precise opposite of one another, but still using their own belief as a means of belittling something that mattered to their partner.

It was the unshakeable sense of male superiority: "because I am a man, and therefore possess the testicles of ojectivity, what I believe is the divine, given by the light of reason, unassailable truth, and you, little woman, are talking nonsense." The actual belief didn't matter at all.

I'm getting more than a whiff of that from your descriptions of your husband, OP. Sorry! Flowers

talkingdeadscot · 09/02/2021 20:39

@CaraDuneRedux

'testicles of objectivity' Grin Grin Grin

OP posts:
CaraDuneRedux · 09/02/2021 20:41

I wish I could take credit for it, but someone else (to my shame I can't remember who) coined the phrase. Sometimes shortened to "ojecticles". Grin

HereForTheFeminismChat · 09/02/2021 22:02

@talkingdeadscot, I just wanted to say that I feel really sorry for you, and that I hope you have gained strength and solidarity from all the people who have posted here. Who'd have thought that mumsnet would become some sort of hotbed of subversive thought, especially when the central radical idea that permeates much discussion is that women are adult human females.

Delphinium20 · 09/02/2021 22:15

I had a similar experience with an ex partner as Cara. It was a different style of music but whereas I just wasn't interested in listening to his music for my pleasure and never expected him to like mine. Despite my politeness, he couldn't fathom why I couldn't bow down and accept HIS music was superior...based on nothing more profound than he liked it. Male socialization.

CaraDuneRedux · 09/02/2021 22:18

@Delphinium20

I had a similar experience with an ex partner as Cara. It was a different style of music but whereas I just wasn't interested in listening to his music for my pleasure and never expected him to like mine. Despite my politeness, he couldn't fathom why I couldn't bow down and accept HIS music was superior...based on nothing more profound than he liked it. Male socialization.
Grin

I used to be so polite too.

He was doing open mic sessions in the local pub.

I was singing in the Bridgewater Hall with the Halle, and singing soprano solo in the local Cathedral in Bach cantatas!

Thank god (a) I eventually saw the error of my ways and dumped him and (b) have reached the post-menopausal no-longer-give-a-shit-about-dick-pandering stage of life.

CaraDuneRedux · 09/02/2021 22:20

Sorry, end of digression.

But it's not just his views that are the problem (though they are a huge problem) - it's his attitude to you, @talkingdeadscot.

It's just so patronising and disrespectful.

MaudTheInvincible · 09/02/2021 23:22

Women are especially given to giving up what we know and feel to be right and true for the sake of others or for the sake of something more important than ourselves. This is because the condition in which women live is a colonized condition.

Andrea Dworkin, “Look, Dick, Look. See Jane Blow It.” (1979), ‘Letters from a War Zone’ (1988)

twitter.com/DworkinDaily/status/1358441891256180737?s=20

www.feministes-radicales.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Andrea-DWORKIN-Life-and-Death-Unapologetic-Writings-on-the-Continuing-War-Against-Women-1997.pdf

CaraDuneRedux · 10/02/2021 12:10

That's it, isn't it Maud?

Male entitlement + male socialisation + a certain personality type = this sort of behaviour.

I guess the point of my digression is that even if OP was the one with the degree and her DH the one with the single A level, he would still behave this way.

It's almost like there's a form of testosterone-induced Dunning Kruger Effect.

It's so bloody annoying.

MaudTheInvincible · 10/02/2021 13:15

Absolutely, Cara.

It doesn't matter what the respective proficiency or expertise level of the male and female parties are, the male assumes superiority, and the female has (usually) been trained by society to accept that.

It's basically a confidence trick.

I'm appalled to hear about your ex and his attitude to music in the face of your clear knowledge and skill in the subject! What an inadequate twerp.

MaudTheInvincible · 10/02/2021 13:17

Oh sorry, wrong Dworkin. This is the one https://www.feministes-radicales.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Andrea-DWORKIN-Letters-from-a-War-Zone-Writings-1988.pdf

MoltenLasagne · 10/02/2021 13:32

OP, you've mentioned a few times that he's talked down to you due to your illness, and now he is dismissing your views on who has the right to touch your body. If there's even the slightest chance you may become dependent on him for care or sourcing care in the future, I would be very wary that he is going to similarly ignore your views then too.

Right now this is a disagreement about the rights of women to bodily autonomy, I think you're so upset because you can see this could translate into some very real world consequences for you.

HermitsLife · 10/02/2021 14:12

That struck me too as a concern MoltenLasagne

OP if I was you I'd be looking at maybe making your daughter next of kin and writing a contract with your specific wishes re care.

I don't know if that's possible, I've never been in that position. I'm not even sure of the correct terminology. Does anyone else know if it is possible?

CaraDuneRedux · 10/02/2021 14:31

You can give someone power of attorney in respect of health care decisions - I have it for my elderly father (at his request). It's very easy to set up; all the forms are online.

And it had struck me that this wasn't just abstract for OP - it could have real world implications.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2021 14:38

Yes I also have power of attorney for someone. You can give it to anyone you trust.