The same as racism? Help me out please.

[talkingdeadscot]

So, after yet another discussion last night, my DH said that my insistence that I would not allow a TW to perform an intimate examination at the doctors on me as akin to racism. I don't think it is but I can't articulate why. Why is my refusal to accept TWAW as discriminatory as racism? He says it's because I'm denying a minority exists and has rights. I said I'd also refuse a man but apparently TWAW so that's not the same even if I personally refuse to accept that TWAW (which I do)

Help!

In my experience a lot of people who haven't been heavily immersed in this issue think the medical/scientific side of being trans is much more objective than it really is. They are under the impression that the medical community has agreed that transpersons are in some real, biological way closer to the other sex. They often think this is an area being researched and not yet completely understood, but that the basic ideas is scientifically accepted.

From that standpoint, not accepting a transwoman as the same as a biological women in a case like a medical examination is wholly about prejudice that refuses to accept reality, just like someone might refuse to accept that people of different races are both human beings with equal rights and capacities.

This IMO is why so much energy has been spent trying to make the scientific angle look plausible, attaching it to intersex questions and so on. The best way to challenge it is to address the incorrect assumption. It can be difficult though, many people believe that medical treatments like this, especially of kids, would never be allowed without significant evidence.

The other difficulty is that those on the liberal side of politics have been trained for years now to accept without question that if you want to understand the issues of a minority or oppressed group, however defined, you have to isten to what they say and accept it. They know their reality, and what needs to be done to help them. Generally questioning the way activists present things - even from a place of general agreement - is interpreted as attacking the principle and bigotry.

This is an almost impossible problem to overcome.

OP, I am so sorry your DH is behaving this way. Given what you've said about his background and education I can imagine the type of man he is and why he really believes that he's in the right here. He's not. This is not an abstract issue for women. Have you tried discussing it with him in a history context - looking at how this current understanding of gender and trans identity is actually incredibly new rather than something that has 'always existed'? The claiming of drag queens as 'trans women', of women who disguised themselves as men for career or survival reasons as 'trans men'?

Alternatively, a calm: yes, of course men who identify as transwomen are a minority with rights. They have the right not to be discriminated against in relation to housing or employment. However, no minority or vulnerable group has the right to be treated as belonging to another minority/vulnerable category. A white working-class student does not have the right to apply for a scholarship for BAME students, even though their financial circumstances will be worse than some of those who are eligible; the same goes for someone who is disabled, or gay. A black, gay, working-class employee will likely face a lot of discrimination in their workplace - but giving them the parking space reserved for those with disabilities is not the appropriate remedy.

I find it interesting that posters grumbling about how terrible it is that women don't want male doctors performing intimate exams (or more precisely, women don't want the option of being able to request a female person instead taken away from them) presume that it's about the idea that someone - whether it's a man or lesbian woman - would be 'sexually excited' by it. That is not the reasoning behind anything where women might have single-sex spaces or be able to request treatment from someone of the same sex - it's about dignity, comfort, a lived experience of certain body parts, and the potential threat of men within certain situations. There are plenty of women who don't care who examines them, but that is very different from insisting that not caring (or noticing) becomes enshrined in law - in the same way that there are plenty of people who are very happy to use people's preferred pronouns out of courtesy but object to being forced to do so under the law.

Yes, ChestnutStuffing that was the issue I had to overcome before I got through to DS1. He believed that this was about a person with a DSD who would - via genital surgery - turn into a proper sex. And he could not wrap his head around how I could possibly be so mean as to deny them their sex.

So I had to first explain the difference between people who identify as trans and people who have a DSD.

He's in the age group where this thinking that we are cruel old-fashioned bastards who want to take people's rights away has taken hold, but he just couldn't quite make that fit his knowledge of me (I'm far more left-wing than my kids). So he was willing to listen and ask questions.

DS2 is more difficult, because he's been taught the doctrine of gender identity at school. He claims that he's also been taught complete bollocks in biology about sex being a spectrum but I cannot quite believe it. I'm more inclined to think he picked up that notion in his online spaces and from his friendship group (his ex-GF, the only girl with short hair at school, has been identifying as trans for about two years). We've also got a lesbian girl in the family who identifies as trans. He's been taught that I am mean just asking questions about this. He keeps bringing me gotchas off the internet, but as the arguments are so poor, he's not managed to get me yet. It's almost funny how disappointed he gets, because these online spaces present the gotchas as unanswerable when they are anything but.

I think my youngest has escaped the indoctrination by dint of hearing all about this for the last four years, so when it started he didn't accept any of it. He may well change his mind later, as he has, of course, classmates who identify as trans (no lesbians anymore though), but he's very STEM-focused and logical, so I remain hopeful.

The difference is that racism is not based on any real facts or data. If a white patient says they don't wish to be seen by a black doctor, that's just prejudice. There are no real grounds for the white patient to object. Women objecting to treatment by male-born staff, on the other hand, may be basing their objections on valid, real reasons.

In my personal experience, for example, male healthcare staff do not listen to patients as well as female staff do and tend to minimise female patients' life experiences and perception of our own bodies. Male-born people, regardless of how they identify, generally have less understanding of female biology and our lived experiences. So if a person has been raised as a male for most of their life and does not have female biology, apart from taking female hormones, I would bet their understanding of their female patients' medical needs would be as poor as any other male-born person's and would prefer not to be treated by them.

In short, there are logical, rational reasons for women to avoid treatment by male-born healthcare staff, regardless of how they identify. I have heard trans people say they prefer to find LGBTQ+ friendly medical staff when they need healthcare because they find that many medical staff still do not understand trans bodies or the medical procedures they need/ have had or can be actively transphobic.

As a woman, I feel the same way about medical staff who are not female. They do not know what it's like to have a female body, do not share my lived experiences and in the case of some male-born medical staff can be actively belittling or dismissive of my needs. If trans patients have the right to be treated by LGBTQ+ friendly medical staff, I have the right to be treated by female medical staff who understand my body and won't make me feel unsafe.

The race comparison becomes relevant when you get patient-centric rather than practitioner-centric - but not in the way trans rights advocates think. The pain of black patients, particularly black women, is not taken as seriously as it is for white patients, because of racist ideas about tolerance for pain. For a black patient to request a black practitioner may feel 'racist' but it's within the context of black patients being undermined constantly.

This is not a perfect comparison, of course. It maps onto why women being able to request female practitioners for intimate examinations is important, but power imbalance is not the only reason this matters. Men too should have the right to request male practitioners for intimate medical examinations - it's not quite the same, because medicine is male-centric, but that right should still be there.

(That so many men would prefer women rather than men to examine them in this capacity says so much.)

Thank you all for your contributions, I've read them all.

I think the reality is he's just not shifting his opinion no matter what is said. This morning I showed him how many people had contributed and that the vast majority agreed with me because they were real women with lived experiences as women. I said how heartening it was to me that so many women are becoming more aware of the issues and how important they are and its ordinary people funding many court cases. He says just as many women are on the side of TW. I don't disagree but I do think that as this issue is opened up and people see what's really happening that won't remain the case.

He then brought up far right christian fundamentalist funding and how the Kiera Bell case is the first step in repealing Gillick

I can't argue with it anymore because it's pointless. Instead I shall come on here, read and learn, and join as many Women's organisations fighting this as possible.

Oh, and I've just found out he has a relatively new 'friend' who's a trans activist. Clearly this person cleared up any queries DH had before I even knew there were any queries!

I think you're doing the right thing OP xx he's really not as clever as he thinks he is....

I'll bet he has.

sorry op i am bewildered by friends who chant this nonsense, it must be so much worse coming from your partner.

OP, apologies for not reading the thread in full but to my mind it's really simple. There are good, historic reasons for single-sex spaces. We don't allow men into women's spaces, and haven't done for a very long time, and nobody previously has said this is bigotry.

The reason we don't allow trans women into women's spaces is because they are men. Your husband knows this perfectly well, as does everyone else.

So ask him this simple question: you claim to believe that men can change sex. That isn't true. So what are you - a moron or a liar?

@RoyalCorgi

OP, apologies for not reading the thread in full but to my mind it's really simple. There are good, historic reasons for single-sex spaces. We don't allow men into women's spaces, and haven't done for a very long time, and nobody previously has said this is bigotry.

The reason we don't allow trans women into women's spaces is because they are men. Your husband knows this perfectly well, as does everyone else.

So ask him this simple question: you claim to believe that men can change sex. That isn't true. So what are you - a moron or a liar?

I don't know how he squares this in his head, I really don't. The conversation goes like this;

Is there biological sex?

Him - Yes

Can people change sex?

Him - No

What is a woman?

Him - It's complicated

Can women have penises?

Him - Yes

What if I don't want a TW in my single sex space?

Him - TWAW

What if I don't believe TWAW?

Him - You're a bigot cos they are

What about all the other women who think TW are men?

Him - What about the TW who are subject to male violence?

Him - Anyway, when the majority decide TW can be accepted in single sex spaces we will have reached nirvana (not in those exact words)

What about women who can't use spaces with TW eg religious women?

Him - TWAW, they'll have to suck it up, anyway nirvana's just round the corner, women's struggles are the same as TW's struggles, bigot!

Blah, blah, blah

Maybe I should've posted on Relationships

If he's got a gynephobic friend supporting him in gynephobic views that involve the active removal of rights from female people for the benefit of male people, and he's determined that female people arguing that they don't want to be subordinated to male people's use are stupid/wrong for not gladly getting under the bus, then maybe offer him some MRA and incel material and suggest he's found his people.

Sorry OP, but he sounds a bit of a loss really. It is perfectly possible to care about both male people who choose to identify as other than men, and about the interests and equality of female people. Being trans supportive does not mean having to actively degrade and oppress female people, that's not trans supportiveness, that's being a gynephobic dick.

@BigFatLiar

Don't think its at all the same.

However I do think its a little sad that so many women think a male doctor will be sexually excited at the sight of a woman's vagina during treatment.

Do you know that some people who were CSA victims can't even see a male dentist? I tried, and even with 2 female dental nurses in the room with us I had a panic attack as soon as his hands came near my face. I felt too vulnerable lying down with a man standing over me.

And it's not because I think male dentists are perverts who get sexually excited at the sight of molars.

I'd tell him to fuck off and move in with his friend.

What is a woman?
Him - It's complicated

So he wants to legislate on 'it's complicated' - he wants all data concerning women - poverty gap, sexual violence, physical and mental health etc - to just disappear. Women's protections, women's sports to just be dismantled?

He's an arsehole, OP.

What about women who can't use spaces with TW eg religious women?

Him - TWAW, they'll have to suck it up, anyway nirvana's just round the corner, women's struggles are the same as TW's struggles, bigot!

Can your DH not see how incredibly xenophobic, racist and sexist that comment is.

It's on par with 'well they are in England now so should dress like us (no hair covering)

Have you got a female Muslim friend who can gently explain why she can't 'suck it up'.

I'm really at a loss to how he can hold these opposing views tbh.

@MichelleofzeResistance

If he's got a gynephobic friend supporting him in gynephobic views that involve the active removal of rights from female people for the benefit of male people, and he's determined that female people arguing that they don't want to be subordinated to male people's use are stupid/wrong for not gladly getting under the bus, then maybe offer him some MRA and incel material and suggest he's found his people.

Sorry OP, but he sounds a bit of a loss really. It is perfectly possible to care about both male people who choose to identify as other than men, and about the interests and equality of female people. Being trans supportive does not mean having to actively degrade and oppress female people, that's not trans supportiveness, that's being a gynephobic dick.

@MichelleofzeResistance

Thank you, you've articulated what I feel but couldn't say. Yes, he's willing to throw women under the bus yet insists he isn't. That clearly takes a massive cognitive dissonance.

How he can agree that biological sex is real yet the question 'what is a woman?' flummoxes him because he can't actually say the words 'adult human female' shows he absolutely is gynophobic. The willingness to take away sex based rights because they're all a tool of the patriarchy but leave us with nothing in the meantime is bizarre. And I really think he believes we'll all come round in the end.

What really shows the misogyny for me, is the idea that women can't come together around women's issues, take action and fight against our oppression, we are clearly funded by some fundamentalist far right organisations. We're too stupid to think and act for ourselves. How patronising is that?

Advocating for the removal of sex based rights does not make you a feminist or a feminist ally and he's deluding himself. Worse, he's trying to get me to change my lived reality because I won't accept that a man can be a woman. Being a female has affected every single part of my life and I won't allow that to be taken away.

Thank you all again

So sorry OP

Misogyny does mean dislike of, contempt for or prejudice against women and girls, which is what this is. However be aware this word has been appropriated by the activist lobby and used to move it from being female focused to being increasingly useful as a way to prevent female people talking about the difference between female and transwoman. See: the Scots parliament committee with very heavy political bias who are drawing up potential legislation about misogyny that I strongly suspect will be mostly used to protect male people from female people's attempts to protect their needs and rights.

So be aware your partner may use this word against you.

Gynephobia is less easy to co opt because it is about prejudice towards humans with female bodies. There's no wiggling around that one. This is all about prejudice towards human females.

On a more basic level, why would you listen to a male trans rights activist over and above even considering discussing these issues with a real live working class woman? Things that affect my demographic the most.

The answer is because you're not interested in how women feel about this issue, only the feelings, wants, needs, opinions of men count.

Apparently long term it's better for women to have their sex spaces removed if that's what the majority want

It's not what the majority want. He's out of touch, not you.

Given that he seems to accept that some men will pose as transwomen to enter women's spaces, do you reckon you could talk him into supporting the notion of third spaces?

If I woke up tomorrow, having lived my whole life as a female, and was suddenly in a man's body (a la Quantum Leap) then I can say there is absolutely zero chance I would use women's changing rooms etc. Even if I felt in my mind like I was still the same person and felt weird with a male body, there is no way I would make other women uncomfortable with my presence or put them at risk from other men who might claim to be the same as me. I'd suck it up and use the men's or ideally a third private space.

Has he not seen that making women's spaces mixed sex removes protection for everyone because men can never be excluded? Why does he think we have separate facilities for men and women? Is it so that we can all have a girly giggle and share make-up tips? Or is it because we need a space where we can be certain that no male people will be present for our safety?

Apparently long term it's better for women to have their sex spaces removed if that's what the majority want

So how about this, we make all the male only spaces open to all and leave the female only spaces to those that want/need/like them? Then if they’re left derelict after, say a decade, we revisit this —utter crap— .

He then brought up far right christian fundamentalist funding and how the Kiera Bell case is the first step in repealing Gillick

This is straight out of the gender ideology handbook. Obviously there is no proof, there never is, and the Bell judgement dealt with Gillick directly (abortion).

This new 'friend' OP, how much time are they spending together? I'd hope one person's influence wouldn't be enough to undermine respect for your wife and for women everywhere but it sure does sound worrying.

Has there been other signs before this? I hate to sound like an armchair therapist but does he have a sister, a good relationship with his mother?

My situation is not like yours but we have agreed on some basic principles (sports, single sex spaces) and also agreed not to discuss it again unless it's a big development so I do bring up men 'breastfeeding' due to drug regimes, all women shortlists and Eddie Izzard when it's topical and in the news.

I would recommend couples therapy if you decide to move forward as your positions will no doubt become more entrenched and resentment will build to the point where separating might be the only option.

That would of course require both if you to be willing to move forward and would only work if you bother wanted today stay together. I certainly wouldn't blame you for questioning whether that was the case for you right now.

Are TM men to him?

If parliament was 50% women and 50% transmen, would he be okay with that?