The same as racism? Help me out please.

[talkingdeadscot]

So, after yet another discussion last night, my DH said that my insistence that I would not allow a TW to perform an intimate examination at the doctors on me as akin to racism. I don't think it is but I can't articulate why. Why is my refusal to accept TWAW as discriminatory as racism? He says it's because I'm denying a minority exists and has rights. I said I'd also refuse a man but apparently TWAW so that's not the same even if I personally refuse to accept that TWAW (which I do)

Help!

@Snofla4

I haven’t read the full thread OP. I noticed an issue early on.

Your husband thinks “it doesn’t matter male/female who does the intimate examination” that is his opinion and preference which is fine.

Some of us do mind though weather it’s male/female. We have the right not to be mislead it’s a violation.

Personally I don’t want a man examining me I always request a woman. The male Dr may be more knowledgeable or one of the top Drs I do not care. I feel more comfortable with a woman than a man.

With statistics telling us that approximately 20% of women experience rape in their life (mainly by males obvs), add into that child molestation, groping, fondling and other kinds of assaults, that's a whole lot of women who will be uncomfortable when vulnerable (undressed, having a pelvic exam) around male-bodied people. There must always be safeguards in place for their protection and well-being.

Some women might not mind. A lot do.

@CranberriesChoccyAgain yes I know some women do mind a lot that is what I said. I personally always request a woman myself.

[quote Snofla4]@CranberriesChoccyAgain yes I know some women do mind a lot that is what I said. I personally always request a woman myself.[/quote]
Of course. Sorry if I seemed like I was correcting you. 💐

I guess what I was trying to do was for the benefit of other women who have the "oh I don't mind, what's the big deal' outlook on it.

And of course one doesn't have to have had those experiences to want a same-sex examiner.

We've agreed that neither of us are going to shift position so we are where we are. The question is, can I live with him knowing what I know now?

I think it all comes down to how you view it. Whether you view it as a different opinion, one which is hard to take but you can agree to disagree.

Or, whether you see it fir what it realky is, given he knows what a woman is , he married one and had a kid with one. , he's openly admitted he will happily gaslight you and his child . That's a form of abuse and is that an example you want to set your child as being ok in a relationship.

It gets tougher the more you think about it. Truly sorry op

I have to admit that gaslighting is something I put up with in what seemed fairly mild circumstances at the time. It is one of the factors that caused me to end my relationship recently. Watching him try and pull the same stunt on dd1 well confirmed fir me it was the right decision

The question is, can I live with him knowing what I know now?

I think this is a huge shift from who you thought he was tbh. Similar to you, DH and have agreed not to discuss it and for a time that worked but it grew resentment and we had huge rows that were about other things on the surface but ultimately we're about this 'difference of opinion' that was so fundamental to our understanding of each other.

We previously had counselling so we reverted to those techniques and have made some progress.

It is of course intensely personal and I can imagine how bruised you feel. I would strongly recommend some therapy for you by yourself if you can't have therapy together. This would of course put the burden on you in terms of time, money and 'doing the work' but it could help you process what you feel based on what you now know.

Whilst some have said he's an arse (he is) and you should ditch him (probably) no one throws away a marriage on one difference if opinion. It's more than that though and I hope the conversation here helps but professional therapy could help you more or as well as. By suggesting it, it may also make him realise how big a deal it is for you.

IDK, just an idea, hope you're OK OP. You're not alone.

”Him - Anyway, when the majority decide TW can be accepted in single sex spaces we will have reached nirvana (not in those exact words)”
I obviously don’t know if nirvana was his words or not but if it’s not nirvana for everyone, it’s not really nirvana.
”the majority must want it if they voted for it. “
There wasn’t a specific referendum on this, afaik, so how does he know the “majority” want it, unless he means the majority of those few who voted on it, which could easily be replaced by a vote on here which would show that “the majority” don’t want it.
What will his thinking be if it is shown that the majority (of the population/women ) don’t want it? It seems to me, that as more information is brought to the attention of the public, a lot of people are changing their minds or coming to realise that all is not as they thought.

What will his thinking be if it is shown that the majority (of the population/women ) don’t want it?

They don't, there are polls.

Well he's proof of male privilege right there - that shit doesn't change the moment you put on a dress either.

His ideas on sex are jumbled up and contradictory - it reminds me of people who are prolific liars - they tell so many lies they get tangled up in their own deceit.

Personally I find it chilling and creepy to be told by a man claiming to be a feminist that he thinks women shouldn't have a right to decide who touches their body or not.

@thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter

Personally I find it chilling and creepy to be told by a man claiming to be a feminist that he thinks women shouldn't have a right to decide who touches their body or not.

Oh, I am instinctively wary now of any man who claims to be a feminist.

In my experience "male feminist" = "gaslighting misogynist".

We've agreed that neither of us are going to shift position so we are where we are. The question is, can I live with him knowing what I know now?

I agree with you that this is the real question. But I’m very sorry you’re in this position.

Have you tried actually telling him how you feel about him now you know his views? That you now see him as a misogynist who neither cares about nor respects you/other women? That this is making you question your whole relationship?

So not talking about the trans issue any more, but about your relationship itself. It sounds to me like there may have traditionally been an imbalance in terms of him with his PhD thinking he doesn't need to listen to you with your one A level, which may have been exacerbated by your having serious health issues which presumably led to more physical dependence on him.

Maybe that perceived imbalance means he has never valued or respected you fully. Or maybe he used to but has fallen in the habit of taking you for granted, dismissing you. Do you think there’s actually a decent man there still or do you think you’re just now realising he’s not the man you’ve always thought he is at all? Is the gaslighting and patronising just part of who he is?

Oh, I am instinctively wary now of any man who claims to be a feminist.

In my experience "male feminist" = "gaslighting misogynist".

This.

@OhHolyJesus

The question is, can I live with him knowing what I know now?

I think this is a huge shift from who you thought he was tbh. Similar to you, DH and have agreed not to discuss it and for a time that worked but it grew resentment and we had huge rows that were about other things on the surface but ultimately we're about this 'difference of opinion' that was so fundamental to our understanding of each other.

We previously had counselling so we reverted to those techniques and have made some progress.

It is of course intensely personal and I can imagine how bruised you feel. I would strongly recommend some therapy for you by yourself if you can't have therapy together. This would of course put the burden on you in terms of time, money and 'doing the work' but it could help you process what you feel based on what you now know.

Whilst some have said he's an arse (he is) and you should ditch him (probably) no one throws away a marriage on one difference if opinion. It's more than that though and I hope the conversation here helps but professional therapy could help you more or as well as. By suggesting it, it may also make him realise how big a deal it is for you.

IDK, just an idea, hope you're OK OP. You're not alone.

Thank you, yes, it's not a simple disagreement for me, it's an attack on and a dismissal of the effect my sex has had on my life. Further, imo, he has no right to make any of these sorts of decisions about or for sex based spaces and the fact he and his political groups and his TRA friend think they do (and in fact tell me I'm the one who's wrong) is a betrayal.

He suggested couples counselling and I have thought of my own therapy but I can't imagine it would be helpful. There is a fundamental difference in our world view that's been a bit of a shock to me (as apparently my position has to him) and I can't see that therapy can do anything about that. It's not for changing people's minds and if it were it would be mine that they would try and change.

Whether to leave or stay is my decision to make.

It definitely makes my ears prick up when I hear that as well GCAcademic.

I'm sorry talkingdeadscot, clearly you have a lot to unbox here and I'm assuming this isn't a stand alone incident. Personally, if I were to go down the counselling route I'd go solo.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

We've agreed that neither of us are going to shift position so we are where we are. The question is, can I live with him knowing what I know now?

I agree with you that this is the real question. But I’m very sorry you’re in this position.

Have you tried actually telling him how you feel about him now you know his views? That you now see him as a misogynist who neither cares about nor respects you/other women? That this is making you question your whole relationship?

So not talking about the trans issue any more, but about your relationship itself. It sounds to me like there may have traditionally been an imbalance in terms of him with his PhD thinking he doesn't need to listen to you with your one A level, which may have been exacerbated by your having serious health issues which presumably led to more physical dependence on him.

Maybe that perceived imbalance means he has never valued or respected you fully. Or maybe he used to but has fallen in the habit of taking you for granted, dismissing you. Do you think there’s actually a decent man there still or do you think you’re just now realising he’s not the man you’ve always thought he is at all? Is the gaslighting and patronising just part of who he is?

Thank you, interesting points.

Yes, I have said his views are misogynistic. He doesn't think they are because he wants all women (and men) to be free from patriarchy. Strangely this also means he wants rid of all stereotypes without understanding that for me, woman as a costume (ie lipstick, nails, giggles = woman) is a disgusting stereotype. Why doesn't he see that trans women are walking stereotypes? Because TWAW. I could scream at the circularity of it!

I also think he has always respected me or a version of me without maybe seeing me as a whole person. As I said before, he has been prone to infantilising me when my health's been bad. And yes, I think he can be patronising and has been known to objectify women but I thought because the outward behaviours had changed that meant his understanding had changed. Clearly, I made too many assumptions about a lot of things.

He did ask, could we actually stay together, could we continue in our relationship if I really thought he was a misogynist and that's what I'm trying to answer now.

It has been helpful to have some outside understanding and to realise that I'm not the only person who can't and won't believe that men can be women

He suggested couples counselling and I have thought of my own therapy but I can't imagine it would be helpful. There is a fundamental difference in our world view that's been a bit of a shock to me (as apparently my position has to him) and I can't see that therapy can do anything about that. It's not for changing people's minds and if it were it would be mine that they would try and change.

Whether to leave or stay is my decision to make.

YY. Remember what the BACP (British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy) guide says, and that it was written by a TRA. This profession has been targeted. Don't have couples counselling where the focus may be on your beliefs and why he dislikes them. I think you would be on the back foot.

What I just don’t understand is how some can not see that it doesn’t matter what the reason is that you won’t let a certain person touch you.
Body autonomy above everything.
I would be worried too if I were married to a man who did not agree to this principle.
Best of luck OP.

Just wanted to say this must be so hard Talking and you are really not alone in this.

Maybe he could do with reading the thread on all the things women have to deal with that men dont.

I’m so sorry you’ve reached this point all through discussing this subject! I can only imagine what a slap in the face his attitude to it is and his intransigence in the face of your explanation of what this means to you compounds it.
For all his words he fails at Feminism 101- listening to women’s voices and valuing what they say.
FWIW I don’t really discuss this issue with DH. He’s generally apolitical across a range of topics and while he agrees, I think he sees this as another issue where I get on my soapbox and while I know it’s an aspect of my personality he loves, it doesn’t motivate him to join in any more than he does with my other topics.

@Kit19

Just wanted to say this must be so hard Talking and you are really not alone in this.

Maybe he could do with reading the thread on all the things women have to deal with that men dont.

If I thought it would help @Kit19 then I would show him but I don't think he'd read it. Also, my whole point is that men can never really understand what it is to be female in a patriarchal society. Plenty of men have shown me that over the years, I just didn't think he'd be one of them

Of course you are right.

But I wish your husband would think a bit more about the reality of women’s experience - of course it could be distressing to have an intimate exam from a trans woman who still has some noticeably male characteristics. That’s no reflection on the trans woman in question, it’s just a reflection of women’s experiences. When you’ve calmed down I hope you can get him to see the sheer cruelty of what he’s suggesting. Trans rights are important, but they cannot override women’s rights.

And I say this with no personal preference, I don’t personally mind exams by male doctors, so I wouldn’t mind a trans women either, but many would.

So he thinks women should be intimately examined against their wishes and comfort, just so that he, a random bloke can feel smug in his views which are irrelevant. Wow. Sounds abusive at worst, devoid of empathy at best and quite thick also.

So he thinks women should be intimately examined against their wishes and comfort, just so that he, a random bloke can feel smug in his views which are irrelevant. Wow.

So so many men are like this, unfortunately. If they really thought TWAW they would be equally dismissive. They don't.

I've seen pompous middle class white male trans allies, claiming to be "inclusive" and understand privilege, dismissively handwave away the concerns and feelings of:

Black women
Muslim women
Jewish women
Lesbians
Bisexual women
Disabled women
Working class women
Migrant women
Female survivors of male violence

When discussing directly with these women.

Not an exhaustive list.