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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

The same as racism? Help me out please.

349 replies

talkingdeadscot · 07/02/2021 09:58

So, after yet another discussion last night, my DH said that my insistence that I would not allow a TW to perform an intimate examination at the doctors on me as akin to racism. I don't think it is but I can't articulate why. Why is my refusal to accept TWAW as discriminatory as racism? He says it's because I'm denying a minority exists and has rights. I said I'd also refuse a man but apparently TWAW so that's not the same even if I personally refuse to accept that TWAW (which I do)

Help!

OP posts:
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Biscuitsanddoombar · 07/02/2021 10:40

Strangely for thousands and thousands of years, humans have been able to tell the sexes apart.

The same as racism? Help me out please.
The same as racism? Help me out please.
BeautifulStar · 07/02/2021 10:41

I was having this exact same conversation with my ds yesterday (he is only 12 so I’m trying to gently ‘educate’ him). The “racism” comparison came up too so thanks for all these excellent ways to explain why it’s really not the same (I said as much but not quite as articulately as you lot!)

Justhadathought · 07/02/2021 10:41

Can I just ask, in this very hypothetical situation (I assume) how on earth would you even know? If someone presents as a woman are you going to ask for their original birth certificate? Blood results

Instinct, mediated by the five senses, primarily sight, and in such an intimate situation the instincts would be, perhaps, on higher alert.

Hagotcha80 · 07/02/2021 10:46

@Tootsweets23

I would ask him if he would get a blood transfusion from a trans man who had been pregnant (say Freddie McConnell) which comes with a 13% increase chance of his own death.
I think he would look baffled if you asked this

There’s so increase in the likelihood no death in the OP’s example

Hagotcha80 · 07/02/2021 10:47

no

Biscuitsanddoombar · 07/02/2021 10:50

Is there an update to the research on blood transfusions

www.webmd.com/men/news/20171017/is-blood-donated-by-mothers-less-safe-for-men

Clymene · 07/02/2021 10:50

No, @Hagotcha80, but it does highlight the absurdity of repeating TWAW/TMAM when it is patently untrue.

BowlerHatPowerHat · 07/02/2021 10:51

If he believes TWAW - ask him if you two would have got together if it turned out after a couple of dates that you were actually a transwoman.
Also ask him if he really believes humans can change sex. And can other mammals change sex?

Tootsweets23 · 07/02/2021 10:52

If TWAW then TMAM, so the husband will have no problem having a blood transfusion from Freddie McConnell if he's expecting his wife to have a medical examination from a trans woman whether she consents or not.

Because the husband and Freddie are the same, and if he says "err no thanks I don't want a 13% increase of death" then he's a racist.

If I've followed the logic of the "argument" he was making to the OP....

Hagotcha80 · 07/02/2021 10:57

@Tootsweets23

If TWAW then TMAM, so the husband will have no problem having a blood transfusion from Freddie McConnell if he's expecting his wife to have a medical examination from a trans woman whether she consents or not.

Because the husband and Freddie are the same, and if he says "err no thanks I don't want a 13% increase of death" then he's a racist.

If I've followed the logic of the "argument" he was making to the OP....

It’s only relevant if by having a TW perform an intimate examination at the doctors comes with a 13% increase in likelihood of death
334bu · 07/02/2021 10:57

As they say in AIBU .... LTB!!!!!!

Hettia · 07/02/2021 10:59

He says it's because I'm denying a minority exists and has rights

Noone has a right to carry out an intimate examination on your body.

Whatwouldscullydo · 07/02/2021 11:02

What legal right to examine your vagina does this minority have exactly Hmm

How dare he offer up his wife as a validation tool. Perhaps he could go chat up a transwoman in a bar instead ? After all he's straight so he would date one right?

Does he have issues with consent in any other areas?

334bu · 07/02/2021 11:02

It's only relevant if by having a TW perform an intimate examination at the doctors comes with a 13% increase in likelihood of death

Is this sarcasm ? Transwomen are male and if an HCP no woman should be asked to allow this without a female sexed chaperone accompanying them.

newyearnewname123 · 07/02/2021 11:03

Can I just ask, in this very hypothetical situation (I assume) how on earth would you even know? If someone presents as a woman are you going to ask for their original birth certificate?

If they pass sufficiently well that I didn't notice then there would obviously be no way of knowing. In general, TW are obviously men.

Hagotcha80 · 07/02/2021 11:05

@334bu

*It's only relevant if by having a TW perform an intimate examination at the doctors comes with a 13% increase in likelihood of death*

Is this sarcasm ? Transwomen are male and if an HCP no woman should be asked to allow this without a female sexed chaperone accompanying them.

Omg read the post I’m referring to!
Hettia · 07/02/2021 11:06

Can I just ask, in this very hypothetical situation (I assume) how on earth would you even know? If someone presents as a woman are you going to ask for their original birth certificate? Blood results?

This notion that women couldn't tell is funny. Unlikely that a birth certificate or blood test would be required tbh.

Tootsweets23 · 07/02/2021 11:10

This is the point. The argument the husband is making has no cost to him. He is giving away rights that don't belong to him and have no consequence for him. That he is so willing to do that (and use a spurious argument like racism in the process) suggests he's not open to logic. So instead it is worth trying to identify the few scenarios where the argument he is making would have an impact on him. One is blood transfusions, another is encouraging him to settle down and have a good wank to some TW porn. Obviously these are not the same as a medical examination but by its very nature it is hard to come up with identical situations as this is a man giving away women's rights which has no impact on him.

ChakaDakotaRegina · 07/02/2021 11:12

@Perfect28

Can I just ask, in this very hypothetical situation (I assume) how on earth would you even know? If someone presents as a woman are you going to ask for their original birth certificate? Blood results?
6ft 2, Adam’s apple, broad shoulders and narrow hips, visibly have more muscle and less fat, large hands and feet.

We cannot discriminate on looks,dress or level of surgery because twaw. Hope this helps.

Original poster
talkingdeadscot · 07/02/2021 11:13

Perfect28

Instinct as many others have said. Like many other women I have reasons to not trust the male class and I would never submit willingly to an intimate examination by a male. For me, it's deceitful to pretend you're female especially if you're in a position of power over female bodies. They absolutely should disclose they're a TW but of course, that would mean accepting they're not a woman. Plus my GP surgery flies the flag so the possibility this could happen is real to me.

For DH, it's just a medical examination so who's doing the examining shouldn't even be a consideration. It's been a revelation to hear that he's so ignorant about what I've been saying and not as understanding of female positions (or even my position) as he seems to think he is, or I thought he was.

Thank you all for your help, I shall be showing him this thread to see if he's able to gain any understanding.

OP posts:
DialSquare · 07/02/2021 11:17

I would see him in a different light after that. Rather than try to see why it is important to you, the woman he knows and loves, he decided to call you racist instead.

DialSquare · 07/02/2021 11:22

@DialSquare

I would see him in a different light after that. Rather than try to see why it is important to you, the woman he knows and loves, he decided to call you racist instead.
Just to clarify, I meant compare you to a racist rather than call you one.
ListeningQuietly · 07/02/2021 11:23

Race is an artificial human construct

It is possible to be mixed race

It is not possible to be mixed sex

Bob Marley had a white father and a Jamaican mother
Kamala Harris is half Indian half Jamaican
Tiger Woods is part African American, part Chinese, half Thai

NOBODY is part male

Perfect28 · 07/02/2021 11:25

Instinct. Right. C'mon lots of us aren't obviously male or female. Especially if we didn't use gender 'markers' - haircuts, make up, perfume, jewelery, clothing. Yes, there are some who look obviously male or female without these things, and there are plenty of people who don't. There's an entire spectrum. The point is, you might not always know.

Original poster
talkingdeadscot · 07/02/2021 11:26

Oh Holy Jesus

Thank you. Yes, it's a few months since we had the first conversation when I discovered he believes TWAW. During one of our many conversations since I told him I felt as though he'd said he'd found religion, that's how big a shift in our relationship it caused (for me anyway) as we're both socialist and atheist.

No one really understands how big a deal it is for me, it's like the whole foundations of what I thought our relationship was have changed. Truth is, I assumed that because he said he was a feminist I accepted that he was. But then, I remember arguing with my entire family over and over that if you are a Catholic you can't be a feminist and no one was on my side so I thought maybe I was being ridiculous. It's the same now, my DH and my daughter both in the TWAW camp, the 2 people I thought would definitely understand. I haven't changed my mind though and I don't know if that makes me stubborn or right! After all, both my DH and my daughter are highly educated and I have an A level Grin

It's ongoing - I did say last night that whether a TERF can live with a SMURF remains to be seen but this has all been helpful. Thanks Flowers

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