The same as racism? Help me out please.

[talkingdeadscot]

So, after yet another discussion last night, my DH said that my insistence that I would not allow a TW to perform an intimate examination at the doctors on me as akin to racism. I don't think it is but I can't articulate why. Why is my refusal to accept TWAW as discriminatory as racism? He says it's because I'm denying a minority exists and has rights. I said I'd also refuse a man but apparently TWAW so that's not the same even if I personally refuse to accept that TWAW (which I do)

Help!

I think it’s a stupid argument, because you’d never know if they were a trans woman. You may have already been examined by a trans woman and not know,
Yeah right

The Transwoman I know pretty well
had their full surgery at 18
and do not look male
but neither do they look female
one instantly realises that they do not fit
but that person does not register to I and my female friends as a threat

To go back to the purported correlation with racism
NOBODY is 1/4 female
but many people are 1/4 Indian

Would he he have any objection to being described as an ejaculator or penis haver in campaigns regarding prostate cancer? What does he think about TW who want to be part of discussion and support groups on pregnancy, breastfeeding, menopause?

think it’s a stupid argument, because you’d never know if they were a trans woman. You may have already been examined by a trans woman and not know,

That has never happened. Although say if it had happened without my knowledge, (and thus without my permission) using the word examined to describe what had happened would not be an accurate description.

I think it’s time for the Philip/Pippa Bunce question...if your doctor who you have always known as a man announced that he will be presenting as a woman on alternate days...are you allowed to refuse him permission to do an intimate exam on his make days? What about the day after? If your dh says you can refuse on male days but not female then ask what exactly has changed overnight; if he says you can refuse on female days ask why he’s not respecting the identity of the doctor and saying they are not real women in those days (which as we all know makes him a transphobe !!!!)

Then ask exactly what a man has to change to be a TW and for how long? See if this helps him see the point!

Confused by the assertion that we could never tell while at the same time we are told that unless children are subjected to urgent medicalisation to halt puberty they have no chance of passing. Which is it?

No one is denying TW the right to perform intimate procedures

Bloody hell. That this sentence is a thing at all is bad. That I could really see it being used as a TRA guilt tripping tool is worse..

The right to do intimate checks on patients..

I guess this might be an example of the 'extra rights' TRAs fight for

(I know thats not how it was meant, it just really struck me when reainjg it.

My first midwife had never given birth and was young. She wasn't very good and I was transferred to a surgeon. DC2 I chose midwives and a doula who were mothers. What a difference!

Years later I saw the first midwife for different care...she had had a baby and because she remembered me, went out of her way to say, "i had no idea about birth back then and this lack of understanding made me dismissive of mothers." Her entire care had improved by lived experience and she told me she was involved in a mentor program for new midwives on this issue.

Personal experience CAN mean the difference for women's care...and we should respect that. Why is it that everyone seems to dismiss older women with experience? We want to make it better for younger generations. I feel like we are the Cassandras.

When I first gave birth I had a youngish male midwife. The birth took hours and for the majority of the time he sat playing around with his smartphone at the end of my bed. I'm lying there, legs akimbo. There was a couple of times when I had the really uncomfortable feeling he had taken a photo or two of me. It still bothers me to this day. I didn't have a choice but to get him. There were no women available. I didn't want him as my midwife.

@Hettya that sounds awful. I'm truly sorry. I had a visceral reaction reading your post and can absolutely imagine how that would feel and I would have hated it too. I'm really angry on your behalf. If I'm generalizing, a young male doctor seems more likely to be an entitled type who probably hasn't yet had the empathy from watching a wife give birth to their child. What a prick.

On another thread someone posted how working class people are less likely to buy into gender ideology because they have first-hand experience of not having a choice of hospital or physician. I'm in the states so you pay for it regardless, so that gave me some leeway in picking a midwife (but we did pay slightly more for a plan that allowed choice).

But I still don't get why men want to be midwives. Why?!?! There was nothing so reassuring as to have experienced midwives be present with me and saying al the things I needed like, "You're doing great. I know this hurts. We're here for you. Is this ok? etc."

Thanks Delphinium20 I'd largely managed to put it to one side for years, and all this male entitlement is bringing it right back to the forefront. I wish I'd done something about it at the time. I did speak to a female midwife at the time who advised me to complain. But giving birth, exhaustion, new baby, I just didn't do it.

Most women would have been too overwhelmed with new motherhood and recovery to be able to do anything...and it's not like parenting eases...we wait years to catch our breath.

Stories like these is why it is SO CRITICAL that we protect women proactively...because we all know that there are times when we are indeed vulnerable. Advocating for ourselves in the moment is rarely possible.

I agree Delphinium. 💯

@Hettya I had a male midwife who made me very uncomfortable (insisted on stirrups and a light for an exam). The Dr arrived and he was sent somewhere else. I had to be transferred to another hospital so never complained but I try very hard not to think about it.

DH thinks the whole gender identity thing is bollocks and can't understand how anyone could seriously believe it. I'm really sorry your husband is so dismissive of your views and of women's needs. That would be a deal-breaker for me.

5zeds

@Perfect28

Instinct. Right. C'mon lots of us aren't obviously male or female. Especially if we didn't use gender 'markers' - haircuts, make up, perfume, jewelery, clothing. Yes, there are some who look obviously male or female without these things, and there are plenty of people who don't. There's an entire spectrum. The point is, you might not always know.

A lot of the "how would you know?" argument relies on the notion that so long as you don't find out (ie they get away with it), someone lying to you is just fine.

I don't think I would have taught my children that. Well, I know for a fact that I didn't, but it would never even have occured to me as something acceptable.

A lot of the "how would you know?" argument relies on the notion that so long as you don't find out (ie they get away with it), someone lying to you is just fine

A lot of women are upset that they were lied to about intimate exams done without their consent.
www.nytimes.com/2020/02/17/health/pelvic-medical-exam-unconscious.html

Lying, misleading or coercion which results in a man's digits going inside a woman's vagina is rape.

From the World Health Organization:
Sexual violence includes rape, defined as
physically forced or otherwise coerced penetration
– even if slight – of the vulva or anus, using a penis,
other body parts or an object.

Surely if you have been asked as a professional to provide a female hcp, you recognise that your patient has a reason for this?

If you are not female but intend to do the procedure anyway in the hope that they will not realise you are intentionally deceiving them?

In whose interests are you deceiving this person you have a professional responsibility to?

And what the hell are you doing in any position of trust?

No answer about how that will help in the short term. I asked how, if the majority of women voted to make single sex spaces mixed, how would the women who didn't want them manage. Suck it up basically, if it's what the majority want.

Does your husband realise he is arguing for putting barriers up in accessing health care that will disproportionately affect women from religious minorities (Muslims, Orthodox Jews, some forms of Christianity, e.g. Plymouth Brethen, Christian nuns) and women who have experienced sexual assault?

Does he realise that putting practices in place that discriminate against Muslims and so on is a bad thing, and the opposite of being inclusive?

I do hope he is also in favour of ensuring that women from all these groups get tax refunds. Why shoukd they pay tax for NHS services they can't access?

@MichelleofzeResistance

Surely if you have been asked as a professional to provide a female hcp, you recognise that your patient has a reason for this?

If you are not female but intend to do the procedure anyway in the hope that they will not realise you are intentionally deceiving them?

In whose interests are you deceiving this person you have a professional responsibility to?

And what the hell are you doing in any position of trust?

This.

Whilst most humans - women especially - can tell who is male in real life (if nothing else, the hips & gait give it away) that really isn't the point is it.

What would we think of a childminder who left a baby alone for hours, knowing that it wouldn't be able to tell its parents? Just because you can take advantage of a vulnerable person, it doesn't mean you should. In fact the people making this argument are painting transwomen in a terrible light. I refuse to believe most transwomen would take advantage of a female patient this way. But it is wrong that the NHS has left this situation open for abuse. And experience tells us that males do abuse women and that abusers do exploit loopholes.

This is a philosophical essay on TWAW and its implications by a male GC philosopher. It may be of interest to some.

theelectricagora.com/2021/02/06/the-power-of-words/