The same as racism? Help me out please.

[talkingdeadscot]

So, after yet another discussion last night, my DH said that my insistence that I would not allow a TW to perform an intimate examination at the doctors on me as akin to racism. I don't think it is but I can't articulate why. Why is my refusal to accept TWAW as discriminatory as racism? He says it's because I'm denying a minority exists and has rights. I said I'd also refuse a man but apparently TWAW so that's not the same even if I personally refuse to accept that TWAW (which I do)

Help!

@PotholeParadies

Are TM men to him?

If parliament was 50% women and 50% transmen, would he be okay with that?

Yes, TM are men and he would be ok with that. It's abstract though isn't it and he can agree with it as much as he likes, it isn't going to happen. He would use the same argument that he used when I said it was outrageous and insulting that TW are being elected to women's positions or that the Scottish Govt have changed the definition of 'woman' so that it's not just women that count on Boards when using positive discrimination - the majority must want it if they voted for it.

That would be a glorious thing though wouldn't it?

How does he feel about Rachel Dolezal? Can he explain why she isn't really black (even though she was raised with black brothers and clearly has some significant physiological issues) but TWAW?

^ psychological obviously!

Please don't despair talkingdeadscot. I didn't get through to my husband for months. In the end it was the Munro Bergdorf documentary that provided the breakthrough. I hadn't wanted to watch it but he did. Even though he didn't accept my perspective at all, he still did listen. So when that came on, he wanted to hear the other side. And after that, he asked to come to one of the women's rights meetings I was attending. The deranged protesters, the security, the misrepresentation afterwards of what was said in the meeting, and what was said at the meeting and he has not wavered since.

He's bloody bored with me talking about it though

If you want a racism analogy I think it would be something like;

A white person decides to self define as black. They color their face and ask people to treat them as though they were black. Then they demand to be included in some black only event or group that is designed to protect vulnerable black people. Is it racist to deny them this?

I haven't read the thread so excuse me if this explanation has been said before -- I'm sure it has! But just in case:

Women excluding transwomen is the exact opposite of racism, excluding blacks from white spaces. Also, the reasoning for exclusion is quite different.

In racism, the more powerful group (white people) did not want the powerless, more oppressed group (black people) in their spaces because they believe that they (blacks) are inferior.

With women excluding biological men, it's the exact opposite. It's the less powerful, more oppressed group (women) wanting safe spaces from the group that has historically oppressed them, and therefor excluding them for safety and privacy reasons.

A comparison with racism is more apt when a men-only group, club etc, excludes women, just as white people excluded blacks.

Of course, when they argue that TWAW that whole reasoning falls apart like a house of cards!

I'm only a lurker on this board but this has made me

Tell your DH it's SO nothing like racism. Trans is not a race. Is not wanting a MAN to examine you racist against men then? (Or would that be sexist?! Twisting my brain around here!)

Many women of different cultures do not want to be examined by male doctors or nurses. Yet you never hear of male doctors complaining. It's taken as a given, that women (largely) prefer to be examined by women. And that's OK.

So why should it be different for transwomen? Trying to conflate women's rights with "racism" is beyond desperate IMO.

Yes. Right on page one, @WendyTestaburger made the same argument:

Racism, (or apartheid as TRAs like to bring that up too) exists to reinforce structural inequalities between black people and white people, to the benefit of white people.

In the racism analogy, it is not difficult to see that males (inc transwomen) are the white people, and females (inc transmen) are the black people.

I am SO sick and tired of TRA's using racism as a parallel to what they call transphobia! It's completely different. It's so insulting to black people.

And of course it's up to you whether or not you want a transwoman to examine you intimately. What on earth is your dh thinking?

I seriously think you're onto a loser at this point, but also worth pointing out if he wants to play with linguistic racist hoops:

Ok, fine. So by his logic black women are women, white women are women, disabled women are women transwomen are women yada yada yada. The adjective just describes the woman. (If you squint a lot, twist sideways and overlook that trans actually means born male).

So he's ok with disabled women having groups and spaces etc that only disabled women attend, right? No able bodied people speaking for them/over them/arrogantly insisting they know better what disabled people need and want and feel?

And ok with BAME groups for BAME women, and the right to demand only BAME voices or people for certain things? No non BAME people dictating their experience? (He should be nicely fired up on social justice warrior mode by now, hell yeah etc etc)

LGBT+ women? All the same? Same spaces, right to choose only LGBT+ professionals/counsellors/groups/not to have policy imposed by non LGBT+ women?

Ok. Female women get the same rights then.

All the above. All the same reasons.

Watch the gears grind.

Great argument @MichelleofzeResistance - my worry or issue with all of this if I was in a relationship with this guy is his answer could be even more awful than what he's said so far. Something along the lines of "all these groups get to define entry except female women". It could end up a bottomless pit of realising how little he respects women and by extension me.

I'm just worried about the OP going through the process of lifting up the rocks of her partner's inner thoughts about women and discovering he has a dark soul.

@DialSquare

I'd tell him to fuck off and move in with his friend.

Yes this for me too I think. Sorry OP

I'm just worried about the OP going through the process of lifting up the rocks of her partner's inner thoughts about women and discovering he has a dark soul.

It must be absolutely awful. But I honestly think I'd rather know sooner than later if my partner was like this.

Also sorry op

Jesus OP, this is worse than I though, his mate's not called Q by any chance? If that's what a PhD does for you remind me to never get one, incidentally on that same point your husband might be interested in this bridge I have to sell.

Yes DialSquare and Wigglegiggle0520 I agree.

What really shows the misogyny for me, is the idea that women can't come together around women's issues, take action and fight against our oppression, we are clearly funded by some fundamentalist far right organisations. We're too stupid to think and act for ourselves. How patronising is that?

Huh, I'm still waiting for my big juicy cheque from the Heritage Foundation - so far all I've got is a lesbian mail-order bride courtesy of was it Julie Bindel (I'm a bit hazy on the details of the conspiracy theories), and since I'm straight that's not really any use to me.

Honestly OP, your not-so-DH sounds like he's just a bit of a sexist twat who's found an outlest for his sexist twattery which enables him to pretend he's got the moral high ground at the same time. Typical lefty-dude-bro behaviour.

I'm late to the party, but you can tell him it's not like racism, the closest it can be compared to is sexism. Because transwomen are male, male is a sex, she doesn't want males to perform an intimate examination on her. See how he gets on with refuting that.

Not RTFT

My initial thought was that OP DH was indulging in devil's advocate/ just putting the other side of the story/ seeing it as an 'intellectual' argument as it doesn't affect him. And enjoying winding OP up TBH.

Way too many men do this.

Then I just read he brought up Keira bell and gillick. That's more than a passing interest/ picked up a few things here and there. That's pretty niche stuff, and yes I know it's been on the news but I imagine most people don't really pay attention as it doesn't seem to relate to them in any way.

To me it sounds like he has skin in the game one way or another.

For a lot of lefty folks, they have a need to be on what they believe is ‘the right side of history’. The trans issue is fraught because it puts women’s needs in conflict with members of the LGBTQ community. For me, as a woman, I find it hard too but my experience of male bullying, manipulation and narcissism means that I will always put women’s needs first, no matter if that puts me on the ‘wrong’ side of history. I know gaslighting when I see it and everything I see from the pro-trans side reeks of misogyny, narcissism and abuse.

If I were a man, however, or a member of the LGB community it might not be worth my while to fight it. It would be much easier to be woke and say all the right things and feel good about being right. I’m only where I am because my lived experiences as a woman make me wary of male BS and I have skin in the game. Most lefty men are like your DH, sadly. They just need to believe they’re right, good people who think the right things. Thinking for themselves against the grain is too scary.

@MichelleofzeResistance

I seriously think you're onto a loser at this point, but also worth pointing out if he wants to play with linguistic racist hoops:

Ok, fine. So by his logic black women are women, white women are women, disabled women are women transwomen are women yada yada yada. The adjective just describes the woman. (If you squint a lot, twist sideways and overlook that trans actually means born male).

So he's ok with disabled women having groups and spaces etc that only disabled women attend, right? No able bodied people speaking for them/over them/arrogantly insisting they know better what disabled people need and want and feel?

And ok with BAME groups for BAME women, and the right to demand only BAME voices or people for certain things? No non BAME people dictating their experience? (He should be nicely fired up on social justice warrior mode by now, hell yeah etc etc)

LGBT+ women? All the same? Same spaces, right to choose only LGBT+ professionals/counsellors/groups/not to have policy imposed by non LGBT+ women?

Ok. Female women get the same rights then.

All the above. All the same reasons.

Watch the gears grind.

Hmm, I see what you're saying and I agree. I just can't be bothered to bring it up any more.

We've agreed that neither of us are going to shift position so we are where we are. The question is, can I live with him knowing what I know now?

So, after yet another discussion last night, my DH said that my insistence that I would not allow a TW to perform an intimate examination at the doctors on me as akin to racism. I don't think it is but I can't articulate why.

Because there is a hell of a lot more difference between a man and a woman than there is between people of different races.

Sexism and racism are similar to the extent that there are both racist and sexist stereotypes, but the underlying structural causes of inequality are not the same.

If your DH had occasion to think this through, he would realise that any marginalised group sometimes needs to be treated the same, and sometimes needs to be treated differently. People want to be treated equally regardless of their religious beliefs, but if the work canteen only serves pork sausages for lunch, that may be discriminatory.

Mainly women just want to be treated as equal members of the human race, but they also need specific rights like maternity leave. Sometimes there is a tension between these needs - because women have rights to maternity leave, some employers don't like to employ women. Equality is difficult. That is what your DH doesn't understand, perhaps because he is used to living in a world that is designed around his needs.

LGBT+ women? All the same? Same spaces, right to choose only LGBT+ professionals/counsellors/groups/not to have policy imposed by non LGBT+ women?

Ok. Female women get the same rights then.

I don't think that this argument would work as he would say that transwomen are in the minority and female women have privilege/oppress them.

How we ever ended up in a world where a subset of males have tricked the world into thinking that they are oppressed by females

I haven’t read the full thread OP. I noticed an issue early on.

Your husband thinks “it doesn’t matter male/female who does the intimate examination” that is his opinion and preference which is fine.

Some of us do mind though weather it’s male/female. We have the right not to be mislead it’s a violation.

Personally I don’t want a man examining me I always request a woman. The male Dr may be more knowledgeable or one of the top Drs I do not care. I feel more comfortable with a woman than a man.

I don't think that this argument would work as he would say that transwomen are in the minority and female women have privilege/oppress them.

The idea that people can only be oppressed if they are in a minority, or that rights should operate on a hierarchical basis is very odd.

It does seem to be popular among left leaning men though.

Your husband thinks “it doesn’t matter male/female who does the intimate examination” that is his opinion and preference which is fine.

I actually disagree with that. To paraphrase Rachel from Friends: "no vagina, no opinion".