When people say 'butch lesbians look like men' I get offended. Thoughts?

[AnnListersBlister]

My lodger and I have this argument periodically.

Some responses I may give- 'men do not own that look'. 'If a woman wants to wear traditionally male clothing, she can-she wants to wear those clothes. It doesn't mean she 'looks like a man' or 'wants to look like a man'.

'Why do you assume a woman wants to 'look like a man' maybe that's just how she feels comfortable'

'Females would dress this way to hide their lesbianism in times gone by, nowadays they don't or shouldnt need to-this is a good thing!'
Etc etc.

He won't have it. I find it offensive and blatantly sexist.

Lesbian erasure is such an issue at the moment I feel. I don't like it. I feel like his comments are so sexist. When others say it, they tend to listen to my reasoning and take it on board and understand what I am getting at but he doesn't. I'm wondering how else I can handle it and also, if others think I am right?

I'm a lesbian, I am feminine though. I am currently seeing a woman who presents as masculine. She isn't offended by his comments-so maybe I shouldn't be either?
What do you feel on this?

Sorry, I should have said 'I dress traditionally feminine' which is what I meant. Not saying that I own the rights to say I'm feminine compared to another female.

I would not be having this conversation about my partner’s choice of self-presentation once, let alone repeatedly, gay or straight, with my lodger. Especially as he sounds like he fundamentally doesn’t get that lesbians are uninterested in whether he considers them attractive.

Do you really want this dinosaur sharing your fridge?

He's an idiot not worth arguing with.
A lesbian in 'masculine' clothing looks like what she is - a woman wearing what the heck she wants.

What earthly business of his is it anyway? Is he just doing it to wind you up?

@PigsInHeaven

I would not be having this conversation about my partner’s choice of self-presentation once, let alone repeatedly, gay or straight, with my lodger. Especially as he sounds like he fundamentally doesn’t get that lesbians are uninterested in whether he considers them attractive.

Do you really want this dinosaur sharing your fridge?

Excellent post Pigs. You have a lodger problem OP

errol I have suspected as much and when he brought it up tonight I didn't respond at all. I kind of HOPE he is, rather than truly believing it.

He hasn't said anything about attraction as such pigsinheaven but I know what you mean. It's come up several times and I've engaged but I didn't tonight.

You have a lodger problem OP

I do don't I. :(

Yup.
Why would you even entertain someone speaking like this about a woman that you care for? Maybe it's time to find a lodger who isn't as prejudiced against women and downright disrespectful?

I respectfully want to say that i observe in gay relations one brings more male energy and the other of the couple more feminine. This is like top or bottom, or where one gay man in the relationship is more the 'mummy' or woman in the relationship. Most of the time it's obvious who is top or bottom.
I do know you can get both feminine looking lesbian couples but i usually see a replica of heterosexual couples ie one butch and one feminine.
I do apologise for any offence.. but i do think some lesbians look like they are trying to look like a man i suppose it's to express and bring that masculine energy and show that they reject traditionally feminine traits.

I think it is disingenous that 'men dont own the look'. We all know in a society what it means to look like a man or a woman. Whether this is an issue for society to change is an aside. Whether yoy confront to stereotypes is an aside. The reality remains that when a person says that majority of society instantly know what they mean because it has been the look of men for so long.

Your lodger is a very odd man to dwell on this.

If he can't reliably distinguish men from women wearing stereotypically masculine styles, that's a him-problem. If what he means is he can tell them apart but he doesn't understand why they're not wearing more feminine clothes, it sounds like you've answered that question multiple times. His inability to comprehend your answers is a different type of him-problem.

The way things are going, maybe the issue is that he secretly wants to wear dresses and so doesn't understand why any woman would pass them up.

I wonder what he thinks Eddie Izzard in a frock looks like.

A reasonable answer might be "Well, perhaps that's how everyone looks, if they don't go out of their way to appear feminine--or what people call feminine".

I’m wfh in a cold room. I want to be comfy so I am wearing lots of the clothes DS has outgrown. I am still female despite DS’s T-shirts, hoodies and socks. I still look like a woman.
No one, and I am on camera for hours every day, has commented.
(Only about the blanket I am huddled in sometime, it’s that cold.)
Your lodger is exceptional.

Is he young and stupid? Perhaps he's had his brain corrupted by gender bollox and thinks that butch lesbians are transmen in denial and need to be coerced into taking hormones and lopping their tits off?

I wouldn't want to share my house with a man who repeatedly aired such rude and insulting opinions. I'd be handing him his notice and looking for a female lodger to take his place.

It's not his (uninteresting) opinions that would annoy me, but the fact that he keeps making these stupid comments about your partner. you don't need to put up with rudeness in your own home.

'A reasonable answer might be "Well, perhaps that's how everyone looks, if they don't go out of their way to appear feminine--or what people call feminine".' I like this teitetua .

I wonder if he's too thick to understand?!

stealhsquirrel he's in his forties.

Yes, true langcleg she's not bothered in the slightest, finds it quite amusing in fact. I do think It's rude.

And I don't think she looks like a man. I'm not attracted to men, so perhaps on a personal level it is insulting to me. But one reason I began this thread (admittedly not articulating it well) is that, I felt it is maybe like a white person deciding what is offensive to black people or a straight person deciding what is offensive to someone ga.

I find it offensive on masculine women's behalves and is that okay?

Do you really want this dinosaur sharing your fridge?

This comment wins Mumsnet tonight.

How dare he define how your partner chooses to present?

pothole I'll be honest, he was close to a friend of mine for a while and she threw some clothes aside for charity. He went to her house for a drink or something, and offered to take them for her as she didnt drive. I wonder what he REALLY did with them

candy I agree.

Agree with many of the comments.

But wonder if this is another effect of the trans narrative that you are what you wear. So young women who like to go out and about in jeans, and have short hair are told they must think they are a boy so must be trans.

And this adult male has carried forward this thinking.

As both a feminist and a lesbian I have a problem about wearing clothing seen as being "male" not because of any gender nonsense, but feel it and experience it as the uniform of the oppressor!

Well crossing this with the Eddie Izzard thread, he calls himself a lesbian, so some lesbians look like men. (Yes I know he's not a lesbian)

stumbled I've never thought of it like that, but I find it really interesting. Maybe subconsciously that's why I do it? ( wouldn't put myself so advanced to be honest)!

testing ugh!

To be fair to Izzard, I've not heard him call himself a lesbian since he used to say it in a non-serious way in his shows years ago.

@testing987654321

To be fair to Izzard, I've not heard him call himself a lesbian since he used to say it in a non-serious way in his shows years ago.

There's another thread referencing what seems to be a new YouTube

I assume he is thinking of women who dress like those in the video and pinterest pics rather than a woman just wearing jeans and a t-shirt- (although it's still none of his business)

It's little disingenuous to say "Well, perhaps that's how everyone looks, if they don't go out of their way to appear feminine--or what peoplecallfeminine" as the women here have clearly gone to some effort to achieve a masculine look. Just maintaining those haircuts would need far more effort than I ever put into long hair.

So far as looking like a man, one of the women in the video says she has been using "the men's room since middle school" and no one ever queries it.

images.app.goo.gl/msCc3Lq8RhbicXGx6

As both a feminist and a lesbian I have a problem about wearing clothing seen as being "male" not because of any gender nonsense, but feel it and experience it as the uniform of the oppressor!

2 of the women in the video talked about suits being armour/ uniform

dido I don't come on MN to look at porn no, I agree that's what he is thinking of.

Porn? What on earth are you on about?

The video is butch lesbians explaining why they have chose a particular very masculine style.