When people say 'butch lesbians look like men' I get offended. Thoughts?

[AnnListersBlister]

My lodger and I have this argument periodically.

Some responses I may give- 'men do not own that look'. 'If a woman wants to wear traditionally male clothing, she can-she wants to wear those clothes. It doesn't mean she 'looks like a man' or 'wants to look like a man'.

'Why do you assume a woman wants to 'look like a man' maybe that's just how she feels comfortable'

'Females would dress this way to hide their lesbianism in times gone by, nowadays they don't or shouldnt need to-this is a good thing!'
Etc etc.

He won't have it. I find it offensive and blatantly sexist.

Lesbian erasure is such an issue at the moment I feel. I don't like it. I feel like his comments are so sexist. When others say it, they tend to listen to my reasoning and take it on board and understand what I am getting at but he doesn't. I'm wondering how else I can handle it and also, if others think I am right?

I'm a lesbian, I am feminine though. I am currently seeing a woman who presents as masculine. She isn't offended by his comments-so maybe I shouldn't be either?
What do you feel on this?

Well setting aside the point that anything remotely feminine must only be to catch a men, very butch lesbians aren't just not doing femininity. It's a very specific look which as another poster pointed out , requires effort put into it. It's the equivalent of overly feminised trans women.

So? Some people take a lot of care about their appearance and to have a particular 'look', whether that's butch, feminine or something else entirely. Some people don't.

It's their choice. It doesn't affect me or you. Why do you care? What do you find puzzling about some people being attracted to some other people, or to people with a particular look? Surely that's normal. It would be odd if we were all attracted to the same sort of people.

It's their choice. It doesn't affect me or you. Why do you care? What do you find puzzling about some people being attracted to some other people, or to people with a particular look? Surely that's normal. It would be odd if we were all attracted to the same sort of people.

I don't think Dido does care particularly. This thread is about whether thoughts on people saying butch women look like men. Dido is allowed an opinion, or is that not the purpose of this thread?

I don't think Dido does care particularly.

I was replying to this part of Dido's post:

Well it does puzzle people. It puzzles my gay friend. It puzzles me. Neither he nor I understand the attraction to very masculine looking women- or to women who look so masculine that they are mistaken for men.

She finds it puzzling that some people might be attracted to very masculine looking women. I don't find that puzzling at all because different people are attracted to different women and men. We're all different.

Finding it 'puzzling' was what I meant by caring about it. Actually putting thought into why some other person might be attracted to another person. It's completely pointless.

Ooh you've got me Old Crone. I fret and worry about this day and night. Whereas in reality it was a conversation with a gay friend about why as his sister is a lesbian she always picks partners who are very masculine. As neither he nor I are lesbians it seemed odd to us that if she is attracted to women to pick partners who look like men. Oddly enough he and I are allowed to have a conversation like that regardless of whether you might think it's pointless.

I don't think it's necessarily saying there is something wrong with you. It may just be puzzlement why, if you are sexually attracted to women, that means masculine presenting women. One of my gay male friends is perpetually mystified why his very pretty, very feminine lesbian sister always picks very butch, very masculine (to the point of being mistaken for men) male presenting partners.

I think its just types in general tbh. Some will be more attracted to feminine presenting people, and some masculine. This is not to say sexuality is about presentation, of course sexuality is about sex. But obviously ontop of sex, people have their preferences, or a lot do. Gay friends of mine have acted confused when lesbians consistently 'chose' butch women over more feminine presenting ones, yet do not seem to notice that they themselves tend to gravitate to the same kinds of people (well, as often as everyone who has 'a type' does..) and I have see many an argument where they would start being nosy about it and the lesbian wome would point out that their past few partners have all been more 'feminine' than masculine also. OR that they always go for masculine blokes, never one more on the feminine side. That never has gone down well from what I have seen, at all. See its been fine for gay men to criticize/question lesbians choices, but ask about their own, and its homophobia

I don't appear to have much of a preference in women. But I do tend have a very specific type in men. Thats not to say I would never fancy anyone outside of that type of course, but, the preferece is there. I have been told my preference is a bad thing many times, women on here might think that also? Not sure. But I won't deny it is there.

@Typesofcatalogue

What is the connection between looking ‘masculine’ or ‘butch’ and lesbianism though? Do you ever wonder why gender non conforming behaviour is more prevalent amongst lesbians?

Is it just that they don’t have to do femininity to attract men so they’re less likely to? Or is it more some aspect of identity?

I think a lot of the time, people assume butch presenting women are lesbian, because they are gender non comforming. But they aren't. People read me as lesbian a lot. Even on here, its usually 'butch lesbians' rather than butch(or GNC) women.

I’m gay and Straight men, and some women, have being saying that dumbass comment FOREVER. I’ve heard it so much about butch girls it barely registers anymore, I just immediately put the speaker in the category of ‘antiquated dickhead who I don’t want to have anything to do with’
It’s a shame you have to live with him. I’m not sure I’d have the patience to.

My BFF ( straight, married, mom) gets taken for a ‘boyish’ lesbian all the time. Doesn’t bother her. But I do think that people need to spend more than 2 secs in judging someone. I on the other hand look ‘straight’ apparently. I don’t. I look like a gay woman it’s just that some gay women look like me.

Ugh get rid of the lodger.

So sick of men telling women what women do / don’t look like.

I think a lot of men get seriously bothered any time women don't fit into a predictable mold. The less predictable people are, the harder they are to control.

I'm a straight woman and when I was younger I wore clothes that wouldn't be considered masculine by most, but they weren't what most women were wearing.
Some men asked if I was gay because I dressed different, and they said it in a mocking way.

Many men think women, even lesbians, aren't serving their purpose in life if their main goal isn't about making men happy. Being too individualistic lets men know you're trying to please yourself too much, instead of putting men first.

Some cavemen subconsciously believe lesbians exist to turn men on, so men have a say in how they dress and look, too.

I don’t know. I thought that was the look they were going for, so they might not be offended if someone mistook them for men? (My 2 year old son unfortunately does this a lot!)

oneepisode I agree, being rude about someone's partner in any case isn't on, regardless of anything else. And thank you-I am pleased at the interesting responses the thread has.

Breatheandfocus I think he is of the school that if a woman is with a butch partner she should be with a man, and that butch lesbians are just wanting to be men-but he continues to bring it up to provike me, I beleive. I don't engage with it, I did the first couple of times but he is far from the only one I've heard it from, and I expect to hear it again unfortunately, hence I wondered enough to begin a thread.
Get to fuck mate
No, you're right. And I don't engage. He doesn't just say it as a 'dig' at me and/or my partner though. He says as a general thing about any female who dresses in the way he says is 'to look like a man'.

stumbledin I have had that said to me too!

PlanDeRaccorde Maybe he’s just jealous women can wear what were traditionally men’s clothing but currently in today’s society he cannot wear traditional women’s clothes such as pretty dresses, high heels, carry a nice purse, etc. I think you may be right (I've heard stories from past encounters)!

CanWeCancel no, it has been many conversations although as I haev said before, I don't engage now. And no, I am not the least bit interested in his private life, rightly or wrongly!

Circus I agree much more to it.

Vulva you make good points about the 'types' thing.

Theyouttheresaying I agree, it does seem to be a certain type.

HarryHarry my ex used to be a little offended. I'm not sure I've met any other woman who was but, this is one reason I began the thread. It offends me, I am unsure why and wondered hwo others felt about it. I'm not attracted to men, I guess that's a part of it.

OR that they always go for masculine blokes, never one more on the feminine side. That never has gone down well from what I have seen, at all. See its been fine for gay men to criticize/question lesbians choices, but ask about their own, and its homophobia

There’s an interesting book called Sissyphobia written by a gay man who looks into the issue of it being quite common for gay men to prefer masculine (straight acting as they used to call it) men whilst being aversive to any femininity both in themselves and other men. Even if they are feminine themselves.

it's not that 'normal butch' is trying to be a man, it's that it's a life-style that's just like a standard man's - ie. not making an effort (beyond clean and warm!), and not giving a damn about what men think about that.

Interesting points, Treestumps. That’s me and most of my women friends, whether lesbian or heterosexual.

Very occasionally, I’ve encountered coldness or hostility from a man that seemed inexplicable, as I was behaving normally, not insulting them in any way. I now suspect they felt insulted because I wasn’t making an effort to look pleasing.

There are some men out there who are really, really bothered a pair the very existence of gay women. And some of them get really angry about it, as if somehow our sexuality is a comment on their sexuality or a challenge to their masculinity.
I’ve never understood it - I’ve always want to say - and sometimes have- mate, what IS your problem? About 5-10% of the women in the world may be attracted to me, ALL the rest of them ( in theory) are yours to have fall in love with you.
I can spot them a mile off now, and usually get the hell away from them because they are the dangerous ones.

Jeans and a t shirt worn by a butch and non butch look different. It's not about not wearing make up or unisex comfy clothes. It's the body language and stance that butch tak while already in unisex clothes and traditionally male haircut. Everything is so masculine and everything traditionally feminine that they can control is rejected or minimised as much as possible.
I am woman and i have every now and again struggled to tell man from woman. There are biological men who have wider hips, slanted narrow shoulders, smooth unhairy faces, small hands. Many women have narrow hips, wide shoulders, add on baggy clothes and short hair, easy to mistake for a bloke. I think if you find that offensive you should make more effort to look either way or just accept that you will be mistaken.

I think if you find that offensive you should make more effort to look either way or just accept that you will be mistaken.

I don't think the OP has said she'd be offended by an honest mistake. That's really not what this is about.

And wtf should anyone 'make an effort' to 'look either way'?

What is the connection between looking ‘masculine’ or ‘butch’ and lesbianism though? Do you ever wonder why gender non conforming behaviour is more prevalent amongst lesbians?

The answer to this seems to do with the male gaze. the fact is that het women wish to attract male partners, and men, mostly, desire a performance of femininity. So even tomboys usually do conform or at least stop actively nonconforming at some point after puberty when they want to attract the attention of boys they like.

Don’t get me wrong, I was still the most gender nonconforming girl in my school but I kept long hair and shopped in the young women’s section.

Lesbian women don’t need to attract male attention and other lesbians seem not to care as much about presentation as men do.

I’ve also heard the “signaling” theory. Some lesbians butch up to signal their orientation as lesbians. Straight women who want male partners then may avoid doing so to signal they are interested in men.

Another anecdote from a time not that long ago before the stupidity of gender conforming clothing took over, not just in marketing departments, but apparently some people's mind.

There used to be a tee-short aimed at heterosexual women that read:

Butch on the street
Femme in the sheets

Although maybe women wore it so that their male partners didn't have to explain why they were out in public with a woman who looked / performed masculinity?

‘ . I think if you find that offensive you should make more effort to look either way or just accept that you will be mistaken.’

Is that what the OP is posting about? Doesn’t sound like it, sounds like Dicko is a bit insecure.

None of my boyish/butchish friends take offence at genuine mistakes, irritating though it can be sometimes but they certainly take offence at the ‘ you look like a bloke/ want to be a bloke’ mob.

You're right, this is sexist and annoying. But it's also a major red flag for me. I'd get rid of the lodger asap.

You’re much more patient than me OP, I’d be getting rid of the lodger. There something not quite right there.

Just as a sort of footnote, there is a sort of parrallel discusion on the thread about what are apparently the "official" signs that mean a child can be diagnosed and having gender dysphoria - which are frighteningly simplistic.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4096882-Surely-this-list-of-behaviours-that-challenge-social-convention-are-not-THE-list-used-by-medical-professionals-to-diagnos-gender-dysphoria

stumbledin this may sound odd, but I don't want to open that link. I have a feeling it will make me very sad :(
I am sure it will have footnotes of lesbian erasure.
And yes, I've seen that slogan too. I don;t believe any butch I know would be seen dead wearing it!

I will read it.. I will.

contactusdeletus thank you-I appreciate knowing I am not alone.

thereouttheresaying None of my boyish/butchish friends take offence at genuine mistakes, irritating though it can be sometimes but they certainly take offence at the ‘ you look like a bloke/ want to be a bloke’ mob.

This^ again, worded much more clearly than I could put across. THIS is what I mean. There is a HUGE difference, isn't there?

I've got several butch lesbian friends and would never mistake them for men.

Your lodger obviously has issues with women who don't adhere to stereotypes. He'd be as confused as fuck by me. I've got long blonde hair but prefer trousers and shirts to dresses and skirts and am not feminine in the way I move or talk and prefer more traditionally masculine past-times.

Women aren't some homogenous mass that exist just to make men comfortable. The issue's with him, not you.