When people say 'butch lesbians look like men' I get offended. Thoughts?

[AnnListersBlister]

My lodger and I have this argument periodically.

Some responses I may give- 'men do not own that look'. 'If a woman wants to wear traditionally male clothing, she can-she wants to wear those clothes. It doesn't mean she 'looks like a man' or 'wants to look like a man'.

'Why do you assume a woman wants to 'look like a man' maybe that's just how she feels comfortable'

'Females would dress this way to hide their lesbianism in times gone by, nowadays they don't or shouldnt need to-this is a good thing!'
Etc etc.

He won't have it. I find it offensive and blatantly sexist.

Lesbian erasure is such an issue at the moment I feel. I don't like it. I feel like his comments are so sexist. When others say it, they tend to listen to my reasoning and take it on board and understand what I am getting at but he doesn't. I'm wondering how else I can handle it and also, if others think I am right?

I'm a lesbian, I am feminine though. I am currently seeing a woman who presents as masculine. She isn't offended by his comments-so maybe I shouldn't be either?
What do you feel on this?

The majority have experience of lesbian women having male hips and a male centre of gravity?

I'm afraid I honestly don't understand.

Rude rude lodger. Where the hell does a lodger get off criticising the owner's partner's personal style? Get to fuck mate. I would not engage for one second.

@PotholeParadies

The majority have experience of lesbian women having male hips and a male centre of gravity?

I'm afraid I honestly don't understand.

This looks to be the point being made to me too, and thats not my experience at all.

@PotholeParadies

The majority have experience of lesbian women having male hips and a male centre of gravity?

I'm afraid I honestly don't understand.

Yes in a way although they are obviously still 100% women

I just googled to see if there's ever been any research to back up what I intuitively know and there is something from 2007 from the University of California, sorry I can't post a link in this device.

This has got me thinking a bit more about why I still think of "male clothing" as adopting the uniform of the oppressor. Part of that is, that in the 60s / 70s when women (dangerously!!) started wearing trousers and it became acceptable (the dreaded trouser suit) men didn't similarly start wearing dresses. Apart from a few pop stars like Mick Jaggers and Marc Bolyn (spelling?).

And also being a lesbian feminist part of what we wanted was to brek away from the classic butch / femme lesbianism of say the Gates club.

Ideally by know, 50 years after women breaking through dress code barriers if men had done the same, a lot of this identifying being linked to dress style, just wouldn't exist. I always used to say we need a couple of generations of Mao uniforms and total cleanse the brains of both sexes about what they should or shouldn't wear.

But in fact the back lash against women's liberation was also very much about getting the sexes to dress to stereotypes. All those 80s big dresses and blouses for women and smart suits for men.

I suppose that's why for me I still see, particularly men's suits, as wearing the uniform of the oppressor.

Although when younger I was told, as a joke as obvioulsy not correct thinking for a feminist, that I was a butch in femme clothing!

sorry - made a typo - the club was known as The Gates but actually called Gateways.

Was your lodger trying to say that butch lesbians often have masculine shaped bodies which move in a masculine type way, because if so I'd agree with him and surely that is how people read another's sexuality via gaydar?

And now we're back in the 1850s. And you have absolutely no idea homophobic you are, do you, poster?

thingybob

I've found the thing you refer to.

It's a study using 8 volunteers. Two straight men, two gay men, two lesbian women, two straight women, who walked on a treadmill.

Videos of them walking on the treadmill were shown to the study subjects. The subjects could guess whether men were straight or gay with 60% accuracy (that means they were wrong 40% of rhe time then) but butthingybob

I've found the thing you refer to.

It's a study using 8 volunteers. Two straight men, two gay men, two lesbian women, two straight women, who walked on a treadmill.

Videos of them walking on the treadmill were shown to the study subjects. The subjects could guess whether men were straight or gay with 60% accuracy (that means they were wrong 40% of rhe time) and thingybob

I've found the thing you refer to.

It's a study using 8 volunteers. Two straight men, two gay men, two lesbian women, two straight women, who walked on a treadmill.

Videos of them walking on the treadmill were shown to the study subjects. The subjects could guess whether men were straight or gay with 60% accuracy (that means they were wrong 40% of rhe time) and thingybob

I've found the thing you refer to.

It's a study using 8 volunteers. Two straight men, two gay men, two lesbian women, two straight women, who walked on a treadmill.

Videos of them walking on the treadmill were shown to the study subjects. The subjects could guess whether men were straight or gay with 60% accuracy (that means they were wrong 40% of rhe time) and tthingybob

I've found the thing you refer to.

It's a study using 8 volunteers. Two straight men, two gay men, two lesbian women, two straight women, who walked on a treadmill.

Videos of them walking on the treadmill were shown to the study subjects. The subjects could guess whether men were straight or gay with 60% accuracy (that means they were wrong 40% of rhe time) and thingybob

I've found the thing you refer to.

It's a study using 8 volunteers. Two straight men, two gay men, two lesbian women, two straight women, who walked on a treadmill.

Videos of them walking on the treadmill were shown to the study subjects. The subjects could guess whether men were straight or gay with 60% accuracy (that means they were wrong 40% of rhe time) and thingybob

I've found the thing you refer to.

It's a study using 8 volunteers. Two straight men, two gay men, two lesbian women, two straight women, who walked on a treadmill.

Videos of them walking on the treadmill were shown to the study subjects. The subjects could guess whether men were straight or gay with 60% accuracy (that means they were wrong 40% of rhe time) but their categorization of women did not exceeded chance.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070911102649.htm

Oh my god. I have no idea what happened there.

The thing is, even though people are largely allowed to wear what they want tegardless of sex (in their leisure time at least), it is still pretty unusual not to be able to tell what sex someone is from their clothes, so it's not surprising that people continue to use it as an indicator.

I suggest that self-selective bias might be occurring. Someone makes a lucky guess about who is lesbian and who isn't, based on whether she is wearing doc martens.

They then assume they have a fantastic gaydar, because they never find out how often they got it wrong.

Lol you made you the point well, several times!

Yes I did read the research after directing you to it and agree it was a very small sample size and doesn't prove anything with regards female body type and sexuality. It would be nice to see something like that repeated but I guess there's no money in research like that.

Maybe he’s just jealous women can wear what were traditionally men’s clothing but currently in today’s society he cannot wear traditional women’s clothes such as pretty dresses, high heels, carry a nice purse, etc.

The word that jumped out in your OP was ‘periodically’... this wasn’t just one conversation where he overstepped the mark and things got a bit awkward. Whether this is driven by curiosity/jealousy/homophobia/ mansplaining/goading for an argument, I would be inclined to suggest he either gives it a rest permanently or finds somewhere else to live. This affects him and his life 0% but obviously bothers you and is hurtful to your partner. I presume you don’t intrude or analyse his private life or choice of partner?

@stumbledin

This has got me thinking a bit more about why I still think of "male clothing" as adopting the uniform of the oppressor. Part of that is, that in the 60s / 70s when women (dangerously!!) started wearing trousers and it became acceptable (the dreaded trouser suit) men didn't similarly start wearing dresses. Apart from a few pop stars like Mick Jaggers and Marc Bolyn (spelling?).

And also being a lesbian feminist part of what we wanted was to brek away from the classic butch / femme lesbianism of say the Gates club.

Ideally by know, 50 years after women breaking through dress code barriers if men had done the same, a lot of this identifying being linked to dress style, just wouldn't exist. I always used to say we need a couple of generations of Mao uniforms and total cleanse the brains of both sexes about what they should or shouldn't wear.

But in fact the back lash against women's liberation was also very much about getting the sexes to dress to stereotypes. All those 80s big dresses and blouses for women and smart suits for men.

I suppose that's why for me I still see, particularly men's suits, as wearing the uniform of the oppressor.

Although when younger I was told, as a joke as obvioulsy not correct thinking for a feminist, that I was a butch in femme clothing!

I just see a man in a smart suit as a man in a smart suit.

There's fewer of them these days, more's the pity and no doubt even if offices go back to normal the ghastly concept of "dress down" will become even more widespread.

I've often thought nothing would make some posters on here happier than if the enforced wearing of gender neutral Mao suits could be achieved.

There’s more to it than just choosing a particular presentation. The butcher lesbians I know rejected feminine presentation from childhood and embraced male interests, toys and friendships at an age when most girls don’t. It isn’t really a choice as such, it’s the way some people are.

@PotholeParadies

Oh my god. I have no idea what happened there.

A clever teadmill effect.

I mean, it's 1:30am on a Monday, let's lighten up a little. I took OPs use of an emoji to mean they were taking the piss...

smallgoon thank you. I accept I can be too crass at times.

ClaireP20 I am all for a good drunken debate, absolutely.

I am not for mysoginistic archaic views though. And I feel he is more the latter, unfortunately.

SimonJT I didn't think to put it that way, but you're right.

This isn't about my lodger per se-but him and others who seem to take that view that butch are somehow jealous of 'real' men, and that 'they just need a good shag' etc. Or that because I am attracted to masculine presenting women there is something wrong with me, and I just want a man really? It simply isn't true.

treestumps that is true-I know women of both those types (and lots of in betweens).

joswis I haven't read that-i want to though. I may treat myself after xmas expenses :)
And that's what I agree about, social construct. I feel this particular man is too dumb to recognise that.
lazylinguist I don't see it like that. I absolutely beleive it is a social construction and I want to be an ally to those who my lodger and others are saying 'look like men' and argue that they absolutely are not, theyre looking how they want to look and that they don't want to be men, they're wearing clothes/using a look that they're perefectly entitled to, and still being very much women.

I used to be good at expressing myself through words. I seem to have lost that skill over the years.

pigsinheaven THIS- then you must really be a man in the wrong body and should transition forthwith. Therefore lesbians don't exist. is exactly what upsets me about today's society. I feel erased. I am fine with trans people. I am not fine with erasure.

invisible yes, that is a problem too isn't it being a woman, to them, is nothing too do with having a female body with all its associated inconveniences, it's about the performatively feminine behaviour. ? I wonder how many men really look at their ways of thinking about this stuff?

rufus
To be fair, a delivery driver mistook my girlfriend for a man some while ago. He was mortified and couldn't apologise enough, which of course she reacted to by reassuring him it was absolutely fine, not to worry.

Shedbuilder I don't know if this is similar to what you mean, and/or if I have an offensive attitude, but I sometimes think, I wonder how many people would still want to transition if gender roles werent (still) so rigid nowadays? Obviously things have improved so much, but not a lot of progress in the great scheme of things?

simonjt that conversation ! :( Truly shocking?! Or perhaps not.

Or that because I am attracted to masculine presenting women there is something wrong with me, and I just want a man really? It simply isn't true

I don't think it's necessarily saying there is something wrong with you. It may just be puzzlement why, if you are sexually attracted to women, that means masculine presenting women. One of my gay male friends is perpetually mystified why his very pretty, very feminine lesbian sister always picks very butch, very masculine (to the point of being mistaken for men) male presenting partners.

You've said in your post butch women "don't want to be men, they're wearing clothes/using a look that they're perefectly entitled to, and still being very much women". You acknowledge however that that look does result in your partner occasionally being mistaken for a man. One of the women in the video I posted seemed very happy to be mistaken for a man. Can't you see why that might puzzle non- lesbians?

Dido no, not really? I feel like my saying that may sound inflammatory, and I don't mean it to, honestly. But no, I can't see why it may puzzle anyone.

What is the connection between looking ‘masculine’ or ‘butch’ and lesbianism though? Do you ever wonder why gender non conforming behaviour is more prevalent amongst lesbians?

Is it just that they don’t have to do femininity to attract men so they’re less likely to? Or is it more some aspect of identity?

Do you ever wonder why gender non conforming behaviour is more prevalent amongst lesbians?

Is it? Have you done a survey?

Lots of women don't do femininity.

@AnnListersBlister

Dido no, not really? I feel like my saying that may sound inflammatory, and I don't mean it to, honestly. But no, I can't see why it may puzzle anyone.

Well it does puzzle people. It puzzles my gay friend. It puzzles me. Neither he nor I understand the attraction to very masculine looking women- or to women who look so masculine that they are mistaken for men.

Is it just that they don’t have to do femininity to attract men so they’re less likely to? Or is it more some aspect of identity?

Well setting aside the point that anything remotely feminine must only be to catch a men, very butch lesbians aren't just not doing femininity. It's a very specific look which as another poster pointed out , requires effort put into it. It's the equivalent of overly feminised trans women.

typesofcatalogue I don't feel 'qualified' to answer that as a feminine presenting lesbian. I have a feeling it is both though.

Oh and before someone reports me for sock puppeting Miss Barbary was the name I use only for The Archers threads and I forgot to change back.