When people say 'butch lesbians look like men' I get offended. Thoughts?

[AnnListersBlister]

My lodger and I have this argument periodically.

Some responses I may give- 'men do not own that look'. 'If a woman wants to wear traditionally male clothing, she can-she wants to wear those clothes. It doesn't mean she 'looks like a man' or 'wants to look like a man'.

'Why do you assume a woman wants to 'look like a man' maybe that's just how she feels comfortable'

'Females would dress this way to hide their lesbianism in times gone by, nowadays they don't or shouldnt need to-this is a good thing!'
Etc etc.

He won't have it. I find it offensive and blatantly sexist.

Lesbian erasure is such an issue at the moment I feel. I don't like it. I feel like his comments are so sexist. When others say it, they tend to listen to my reasoning and take it on board and understand what I am getting at but he doesn't. I'm wondering how else I can handle it and also, if others think I am right?

I'm a lesbian, I am feminine though. I am currently seeing a woman who presents as masculine. She isn't offended by his comments-so maybe I shouldn't be either?
What do you feel on this?

I was joking probably inappropriately. It is a very informative video.

The video is a celebration of butch women by butch women (including one woman who actually says she herself accepts she looks like a man to the point she isn't challenged in male toilets). How is that porn?

Interestingly, whenever I hear somebody refer to a lesbian as 'butch' I don't immediately relate this solely to the clothing that they choose to wear. My understanding of 'butch' is someone of a larger/stocky build, short/shaven head and a general appearance which through choice, is as far away from being 'feminine' as possible.

Personally, I don't find the statement offensive.

I was being silly (because I am attracted to butch women).

I enjoyed the video. I am quite glad of my conduct with him earlier-i/e not engaging,and I feel it will come up again but I am now better equipped.

goon agree butch is about a lot more than clothing.

He's a total wanker

Stop did discussing it with him

@AnnListersBlister

I was being silly (because I am attracted to butch women).

I enjoyed the video. I am quite glad of my conduct with him earlier-i/e not engaging,and I feel it will come up again but I am now better equipped.

I didn't find your joke funny. I am not a radical feminist or even a feminist but I am implacably and vociferously opposed to the "sex trade" and always post on threads about opposition to making prostitution and porn mainstream.

The flippant suggestion I had posted porn is pretty offensive.

I always thought 'butch' lesbians wanted to look like men... Or at least want to look like the most masculine version of themselves, and also want people to identify them as such. Am I a homophobe?

I didn't find your joke funny. I am not a radical feminist or even a feminist but I am implacably and vociferously opposed to the "sex trade" and always post on threads about opposition to making prostitution and porn mainstream.

The flippant suggestion I had posted porn is pretty offensive.

I mean, it's 1:30am on a Monday, let's lighten up a little. I took OPs use of an emoji to mean they were taking the piss...

I am too dido. I apologise. I've no excuses to make for my overly sinister way of making laughter for adversity-just, being gay and a sociologist in a blatantly oppressive world, I hope you accept but understand if not.

I think some straight/bi men actually are attracted to “femininity” hence why many are attracted to both women and transwomen. They seem the have difficulty understanding being attracted to a female person who isn’t made up / boobs out because that’s what they expect in their sexual interests. I’ve heard straight men argue “if you like butches why not go for a real man instead of an imitation.” Revolting.

“if you like butches why not go for a real man instead of an imitation.” Revolting. I've heard that a lot too. It is revolting.

@FWRLurker

I think some straight/bi men actually are attracted to “femininity” hence why many are attracted to both women and transwomen. They seem the have difficulty understanding being attracted to a female person who isn’t made up / boobs out because that’s what they expect in their sexual interests. I’ve heard straight men argue “if you like butches why not go for a real man instead of an imitation.” Revolting.

"Feminity" isn't just "made up/boobs out".

I admire the artifice and effort the women in the video and pictures I posted have put in, although as a style or look it's not one I personally find attractive. I'm with smallgoon

I always thought 'butch' lesbians wanted to look .... like the most masculine version of themselves, and also want people to identify them as such. Am I a homophobe?

I sort of assumed the reason some lesbians presented a certain way was because they do not want, nor need, to cater to the male gaze.

So, they just present as they are. Which is also how many, many, men - who also don’t have to cater to the male gaze - just so happen to present. Short, easy-care hair, neutral, comfortable clothes (shorts, trousers, tops, flat shoes), no make-up, etc, etc.

I also figured that’s maybe why some gay men, on the other hand, do go to a lot more effort, aesthetically speaking. They are impacted by the male gaze, and try to appeal to it.

And slightly off topic, but lodgers aren’t something I’m all that familiar with. We don’t have them here. People just flat/house share, regardless of whether or not one of them might be the owner.

I’m on two lodger threads at the moment, and in both cases, the lodger is an inappropriate, socially inept male, who just has to share his odious thoughts with his landlady... Coincodence?

Well going against the grain..but at least your lodger has interesting discussions with you, it's nice to disagree on things, and see things from each other's perspective. Who wants to live in a vanilla world? He sounds like someone you could get drunk with and have a good old fashioned row with. The #BeNice movement (designed to shut everyone up, particularly women) is bloody boring. X

@DearFriend incredibly homophobic posts aren’t cancelled out by apologising for being homophobic.

OP you have a lodger problem, I couldn’t live with someone like that, I would be serving notice and advertising for another lodger. People who repeat common homophobic tropes have no place in my life, its much better when you get rid of them. In my experience the “butch lesbians look like men” comments soon turn into “she just needs a good shag to sort her out”.

I think you almost need to break it down further.

There's the style 'Butch' which is very turned out - sharp haircut/suit etc. It's 'a look', that takes as much effort as a woman who's into 40's style or goth or whatever.

Then there's just everyday butch - short hair, practical comfy clothes etc.

I mean, I don't think either look like men, but I think the second one confuses men more - baffled at why these women aren't even trying to make an effort to look like 'a woman', and not understanding that they're actually doing no different to most men, and just doing what they like with no thought as to whether someone thinks it's attractive.

There, I've just come round to it myself - it's not that 'normal butch' is trying to be a man, it's that it's a life-style that's just like a standard man's - ie. not making an effort (beyond clean and warm!), and not giving a damn about what men think about that.

I just realised 'not making an effort' might come across rather rudely.

I mean, not going out of their way to do things that they don't want to do, just because others expect them to.

(and yes, I realise some men do also go all out. I'm making massive generalisations)

Butch lesbians may look masculine. But given that gender is a social construct, masculinity isn't innate to men.

Have you ever read the book, Female Masculinity? It's great.

I'm a lesbian, I am feminine though. I am currently seeing a woman who presents as masculine.

Surely the phrases you use - 'presents as masculine' and 'feminine' are literally just another way of phrasing 'dresses in a way that looks like a man' and 'dresses in a way that looks like a woman' though, OP? What else do 'masculine' or 'feminine' mean in the context of appearance?

Completely agree with merchant

I would, clothing wise, love to wear more masculine styled clothing but with the fat and ginourmous boobs its just not going to happen

My hair is short but i do love makeup

Dinner dance outfit (dh work) is usually trousers, sparkly t shirt and a tux jacket. Women were told to wear a red or white evening gown at one do...

The current generation seem to have resurrected all the tired old gender stereotypes that my boomer generation rejected over 40 years ago!
Wanting to wear suits or trousers is not “dressing like a man”. It just means enjoying practical comfortable clothes and/or rejecting female stereotype dresses.
I haven’t worn a dress in decades, and I’m not a lesbian, butch or otherwise. I’m entitled to wear whatever I like, and the same goes for lesbians. Your lodger sounds a bore or is trying to provoke an argument.

@lazylinguist

I'm a lesbian, I am feminine though. I am currently seeing a woman who presents as masculine.

Surely the phrases you use - 'presents as masculine' and 'feminine' are literally just another way of phrasing 'dresses in a way that looks like a man' and 'dresses in a way that looks like a woman' though, OP? What else do 'masculine' or 'feminine' mean in the context of appearance?

I would say it's shorthand for 'presents in a way conventionally associated with the conventions of female/male dress/appearance/grooming etc'.

@Babdoc

The current generation seem to have resurrected all the tired old gender stereotypes that my boomer generation rejected over 40 years ago! Wanting to wear suits or trousers is not “dressing like a man”. It just means enjoying practical comfortable clothes and/or rejecting female stereotype dresses. I haven’t worn a dress in decades, and I’m not a lesbian, butch or otherwise. I’m entitled to wear whatever I like, and the same goes for lesbians. Your lodger sounds a bore or is trying to provoke an argument.

Actually, I think it's a lot worse than resurrecting lazy stereotypes -- the logic now seems to be that if you are biologically female but don't feel that the gender conventions of 'traditional' femininity are for you and/or you are attracted to women, then you must really be a man in the wrong body and should transition forthwith. Therefore lesbians don't exist.

You could line me up with every woman of my kind of age in our large village and you wouldn't be able to tell which of us was the lesbian. The huge majority are comfortably and practically dressed in trousers, boots, jumpers and minimal make-up. Most of us have short hair too because when you get older your hair changes and often short is the only viable option. The most masculine-looking ones are the horse owners, and they're all as straight and conservative as they come.

The very first transwoman I knew — boyfriend of my best friend — used to ask us why we didn't wear more/ better make-up, why we didn't wear dresses, why we didn't spend an hour on our hair every day, why we didn't make ourselves look pretty. Completely blind to gender stereotyping and all the issues women face about the dual pressures of having to look good while being discriminated against for only being a pretty face/ neat figure.

Only a couple of years ago, when I was wearing well-fitted black jeans and a really beautiful crisp white shirt at a party, a transwoman in a flouncy frock sidled up to me and asked me why I didn't make more of myself — by which it appeared they meant look more like them. Long hair, loads of make-up, layered florals and flounce. I told that transwoman what I'd told Phil, my friend's boyfriend back in the 90s: 'Because I don't need to prove anything.'

Totally agree with Babdoc. I turned 60 a couple of months ago. I look at my nieces (in their early 30s) and all the young women around and wondered who turned the clock back to 1955. So much time and money wasted on trying to meet impossible stereotypes. Nieces who get up at stupidly early in order to get their hair and make-up sorted before they get the children up. Bathrooms full of expensive and barely-used products. Credit card debt for clothing and perfume and bags and shoes they've been persuaded they need.

Oh, the freedom (and the extra cash) when you opt out of all that.