When people say 'butch lesbians look like men' I get offended. Thoughts?

[AnnListersBlister]

My lodger and I have this argument periodically.

Some responses I may give- 'men do not own that look'. 'If a woman wants to wear traditionally male clothing, she can-she wants to wear those clothes. It doesn't mean she 'looks like a man' or 'wants to look like a man'.

'Why do you assume a woman wants to 'look like a man' maybe that's just how she feels comfortable'

'Females would dress this way to hide their lesbianism in times gone by, nowadays they don't or shouldnt need to-this is a good thing!'
Etc etc.

He won't have it. I find it offensive and blatantly sexist.

Lesbian erasure is such an issue at the moment I feel. I don't like it. I feel like his comments are so sexist. When others say it, they tend to listen to my reasoning and take it on board and understand what I am getting at but he doesn't. I'm wondering how else I can handle it and also, if others think I am right?

I'm a lesbian, I am feminine though. I am currently seeing a woman who presents as masculine. She isn't offended by his comments-so maybe I shouldn't be either?
What do you feel on this?

'thereouttheresaying None of my boyish/butchish friends take offence at genuine mistakes, irritating though it can be sometimes but they certainly take offence at the ‘ you look like a bloke/ want to be a bloke’ mob.

This^ again, worded much more clearly than I could put across. THIS is what I mean. There is a HUGE difference, isn't there?'

There is a massive difference, the why do lesbians have to 'want ' to be men lot I find are also the ones who ask dumb ass questions like 'who's the man' in the relationship. They can't get there heads around the fact that there quite literally is NOT a man or a male in the relationship, it's two women end of.

"I've got several butch lesbian friends and would never mistake them for men."

I've got a butch friend and she definitely dresses like a man. She could be mistaken for a young boy maybe. It's more than just wearing trousers isn't it. She does like men's style of clothing and I think she does want to look like a man to some extent. Some women do. I don't see what's so wrong about saying that.

I am a butch lesbian, and in my 20's I used to identify with the Butch community, not so much nowadays. I guess I've mellowed a lot in the last 10-15 years or so. I don't take offence if someone says I look like a man, because objectively, yes, I do look like a man. I would take offence if someone says I want to be a man, though, because that's totally not what I am about. Looking like a man is a bit of an unintended consequence of dressing masculine.

I guess with your lodger it depends on how he says it. Is it with venom or disdain? Is he one of those (sorry to say) boorish unintelligent people who tends to say the one predictable thing whenever this topic comes up because he simply doesn't have anything new to say? I would just dismiss it if it's the latter.

Butch women look.like butch women to me.

They look like women who are rejecting feminine presentation norms

Good on 'em.

Occasionally I might be unsure as to their sex (not often) but their voice will indicate they are female.

This thread isn't as well balanced and open as I'd hoped. Every reasonable question has just been ignored or brushed off. Or Op didn't feel that way and said that, which is fine, but I felt that if the point had been REALLY discussed, it would have taken the thread in a totally different direction.

I refer to the posts by:

Dear Friend - she was perfectly polite and I didn't see anything wrong with her post.

Small goon - they want to look / dress masculine. And that's perfectly ok.

OP: "I am currently seeing a woman who presents as masculine."

This is fine OP. Why can't we talk sensibly about the fact that some lesbians are more masculine. Some want to be more masculine. Some choose to , want to look butch. This is perfectly ok. So why can't we talk about it?

Lesbians are just like other women. Some are very feminine, some are rather gender neutral, some are more masculine.

I don't like this discussion of lesbians as if they are another species!

Haven't they done tests and found that very butch, very masculine lesbians had higher levels of testosterone and androgens.

This makes scientific sense to me. It just makes sense. Why is this a problem? It's not. Or shouldn't be. Just a fact.

@BlackWaveComing

Lesbians are just like other women. Some are very feminine, some are rather gender neutral, some are more masculine.

I don't like this discussion of lesbians as if they are another species!

Well, no, among the women I know there are many more butch women who are lesbians than who are straight.

I'm with BlackWave

I know the stereotypes, but they're stereotypes.

Stereotypes arise out of the human tendency to remember correct predictions and not when they got it wrong.

Stereotypes are also self-fulfilling prophecies. Assume that all little girls naturally like embroidery and pink, and bring them up telling them so. You will have more women than men who enjoy embroidery. Doesn't mean it's an innate trait.

People often embrace stereotypes though, isn't that what being a goth, or an egirl, or whatever, is about?

I don't think I'd ever call someone butch because it seems rude, but there are women, some lesbians and some not, who deliberately dress in a more masculine style. And not necessarily because they find it more comfortable, or just happen to prefer it aesthetically - what they like about it is that it is masculine. If what we thought of as masculine was different, that's what they'd tend to wear.

You see the same thing with men to some extent, a few men, many gay but a few others as well, deliberately choose a more feminine style of clothing or talking or even interests.

There's more than one reason people do this, IMO, but I don't think it's rocket science that our feelings about our sexuality might affect how we think about the way we are masculine or feminine or how we want to relate to that. Often in ways that aren't entirely rational or conscious.

Yeah, not really here for the irrationality of butchness.

‘ Haven't they done tests and found that very butch, very masculine lesbians had higher levels of testosterone and androgens.

This makes scientific sense to me. It just makes sense. Why is this a problem? It's not. Or shouldn't be. Just a fact.’

What ‘tests’ ? Who’s ‘they’.
I’ve heard that lesbians tend to have their ring finger longer than their middle finger. ‘They’ have said that but mine isn’t and I’m a lesbian...

The truth is there are no scientific studies that have proved that butch women have more of anything that other gay or bi women. Or even if straight women for that matter.

"I don't think I'd ever call someone butch because it seems rude"

It's not an insult. Some women want to look butch.

""I don't think I'd ever call someone butch because it seems rude"

It's not an insult. Some women want to look butch."

Yup, the women I know who are really are butch don't care at all if someone says it. Even the boy-ish ones who aren't 'butch' by any proper definition don't get offended if it's not a wind up by some bloke.

@Oblomov20

Haven't they done tests and found that very butch, very masculine lesbians had higher levels of testosterone and androgens.

This makes scientific sense to me. It just makes sense. Why is this a problem? It's not. Or shouldn't be. Just a fact.

I would be interested in seeing such 'tests', cannot see why this would happen, as..well it sounds like there is a genetic reason for which stereotypes you follow?! Which makes no sense again, as stereotypes change over time/place too.

I also don't get annoyed if someone thinks I am a man. Though thats only ever been men, who do that, so far. They generally apologise afterwards when they hear my voice, but its not a big deal. Its actually one of the reasons I find it quite baffling that 'misgendering' is such a horrific and violent act to some.

I’m a lesbian, not butch at all, but also not super “feminine”, not into “masculine” presenting women, which since I’m feminine is always assumed, I find that a bit offensive, because people assume lesbians are trying to replicate a heterosexual relationships, when there are no “gender roles” in my relationship and I’ve never been in a relationship with any woman where one of us is “the man”.

I also hate the assumption my femininity must be performative (had lesbians and heterosexual people say this) because no lesbian could naturally be feminine, femininity is only ever to attract men or to hide being gay.

Some women are just naturally more masculine, whether they are gay or straight, from experience some women do perform at being more masculine like some (heterosexual) women perform at being more feminine, to attract a partner (signalling they’re gay or appealing to women who like more masculine presenting women). I don’t know if lesbians are naturally more masculine than straight women or if it’s due social conditioning of gay and heterosexual women, as I know many straight women who would like to have short hair, stop wearing makeup, stop wearing heels etc., but feel pressured from their male partners to continue because it’s what they find attractive.

I find it interesting really because when I was a child I convinced myself I couldn’t be gay because I was too feminine and then when I realised I was gay, I assumed I would never find a partner because I was attracted to feminine women and I thought feminine women were only interested in masculine women, which I’ve since found out is not true at all. Feminine lesbian couples are often not “visible” because people assume they’re friends or sisters etc. From my experience lesbian couples are usually fairly matched in their femininity and masculinity.

I don't think it is always about clothes. Some lesbians are just very bloke-ish, whatever they wear, others are not.

Some women who are not lesbians look rather butch too just as some men are 'pretty'.

So what? It's all part of life's rich tapestry.

I also hate the assumption my femininity must be performative (had lesbians and heterosexual people say this) because no lesbian could naturally be feminine, femininity is only ever to attract men hmm or to hide being gay.

Ugh what bollocks.

I would genuiely love to know why some place such value on stereotypes.

"They generally apologise afterwards when they hear my voice, but its not a big deal. Its actually one of the reasons I find it quite baffling that 'misgendering' is such a horrific and violent act to some."

I have to say, I'd be REALLY upset if someone thought I was a man.

"I don’t know if lesbians are naturally more masculine than straight women or if it’s due social conditioning of gay and heterosexual women"

Definitely natural for some women. I had two tomboy friends when I was growing up who just hated wearing skirts, leading to arguments with mothers and school. They were going against their social conditioning, not with it.

Arguing with your mum about wearing a skirt is not confined to young butch lesbians. Plenty of gender non-conforming straight women too.

I also hate the assumption my femininity must be performative (had lesbians and heterosexual people say this) because no lesbian could naturally be feminine, femininity is only ever to attract menor to hide being gay

I hate the assumption that as a very feminine heterosexual woman I'm only that way to attract men. It's an idea which has been mentioned in passing in this thread.

I only dislike being misgendered because it’s socially awkward. The person doing it gets flustered. I just pretend it hasn’t happened. It doesn’t make me feel anything much at all, because it really doesn’t matter.