When people say 'butch lesbians look like men' I get offended. Thoughts?

[AnnListersBlister]

My lodger and I have this argument periodically.

Some responses I may give- 'men do not own that look'. 'If a woman wants to wear traditionally male clothing, she can-she wants to wear those clothes. It doesn't mean she 'looks like a man' or 'wants to look like a man'.

'Why do you assume a woman wants to 'look like a man' maybe that's just how she feels comfortable'

'Females would dress this way to hide their lesbianism in times gone by, nowadays they don't or shouldnt need to-this is a good thing!'
Etc etc.

He won't have it. I find it offensive and blatantly sexist.

Lesbian erasure is such an issue at the moment I feel. I don't like it. I feel like his comments are so sexist. When others say it, they tend to listen to my reasoning and take it on board and understand what I am getting at but he doesn't. I'm wondering how else I can handle it and also, if others think I am right?

I'm a lesbian, I am feminine though. I am currently seeing a woman who presents as masculine. She isn't offended by his comments-so maybe I shouldn't be either?
What do you feel on this?

@BlackWaveComing

Arguing with your mum about wearing a skirt is not confined to young butch lesbians. Plenty of gender non-conforming straight women too.

Maybe so, but my point was that it's not social conditioning.

@SophocIestheFox

I only dislike being misgendered because it’s socially awkward. The person doing it gets flustered. I just pretend it hasn’t happened. It doesn’t make me feel anything much at all, because it really doesn’t matter.

A friend at school had very short hair and went to the mart wearing overalls. Someone asked her dad who the young lad was. She was just as upset as I would have been, I can tell you.

@Gwenhwyfar

"I don't think I'd ever call someone butch because it seems rude"

It's not an insult. Some women want to look butch.

Yes, some wouldn't mind, but some really might. I'd prefer not to mix them up.

But I think the whole discussion would be simpler if it used clearer language - what you are really saying is that some women want to look masculine.

But it doesn't work if masculine is not a thing.

What's the difference between saying a woman presents as masculine and saying she looks like a man?

@Gwenhwyfar

"They generally apologise afterwards when they hear my voice, but its not a big deal. Its actually one of the reasons I find it quite baffling that 'misgendering' is such a horrific and violent act to some."

I have to say, I'd be REALLY upset if someone thought I was a man.

Maybe I am desensitized or something, though I don't remember ever caring really. Tends to happen from behind also. People (well men, seemingly) see short hair, trousers, whatever and assume man.

I seem to be making the mistake of assuming others think like me, apologies for that.

'What's the difference between saying a woman presents as masculine and saying she looks like a man?'

Intent. As a gay woman ( albeit one who generally passes for 'straight') I have frequently been accused of wanting to be a bloke, look like a man. be a man etc. in a hostile manner from homophobic men, and some women. It's often a precursor to some sort of threat from said homophobes.
Saying someone looks like a man is often used as an insult. Wearing trousers, having short hair or nails, not wearing makeup, or dresses or heels doesn't make someone 'masculine'. boyish or butch girls and women look like boyish and butch women to me not men but I can see why people who aren't used to seeing LGBT people as much may not realise that.
There is a massive difference, however, between a genuine mistake and deliberately, consistently calling a woman a 'man' when you know she's not one.

No-one care

Haven't they done tests and found that very butch, very masculine lesbians had higher levels of testosterone and androgens. I have heard this but never seen anything concrete on it. However as a 'femme' who passes for straight, I have too much testosterone. Not enough tohave been offered medication, but I have a lot of symptoms that can be put down to it. Interesting.

‘Haven't they done tests and found that very butch, very masculine lesbians had higher levels of testosterone and androgens. I have heard this but never seen anything concrete ‘

No, that’s a myth. Part of the homophobic rhetoric of the 70/80s etc when various people, institutions were out to prove that lesbians were wrong somehow, other, not like ‘normal’
Women...

theyouttheresaying (please tell me what that username means) :)

Yes, I was quoting someone else but I had heard about such tests and never looked it up or tried to figure it out-I guess just isn't important in my view but what you have said makes perfect sense (unfortunately).

Conversely, my testosterone levels are too high. I have thin hair even at a relatively young age, and grow a beard if I don't have laser treatment.

I'm femme as they come though.

Yup, a few ‘studies’ done on a handful of people back in the day... showing absolutely nothing. Some women do have more testosterone than others but it doesn’t decided their
Sexuality.
Oh, and the user name is from a sketch on SNL

"Conversely, my testosterone levels are too high. I have thin hair even at a relatively young age, and grow a beard if I don't have laser treatment."

Do you have any of the supposed benefits of higher testosterone as well like higher confidence? There were lots of magazine articles a few years ago about ambitious women taking testosterone to do well at work.

gwen hmm that's interesting! I'd never do it though personally.
I'm unsure to be honest. I dont have great self esteem but I am quite confident. I put that down to being gay rather than being of higher than average testosterone. Maybe I'm wrong? As a guess though, I dont believe so.

I’m not gay but when younger was frequently mistaken for a boy/young man. I did a typically “male” job and wasn’t bothered.
In fact when I first met my (now) ex he threatened to deck me because I laughed at him (well-deserved) and he thought I was a lad.

@Theyouttheresayin

My BFF ( straight, married, mom) gets taken for a ‘boyish’ lesbian all the time. Doesn’t bother her. But I do think that people need to spend more than 2 secs in judging someone. I on the other hand look ‘straight’ apparently. I don’t. I look like a gay woman it’s just that some gay women look like me.

I get this. I'm a lesbian and I've had a lot of people in the past almost "compliment" me by saying "oh but you don't look gay though".

I say, yes I do! I am what gay looks like. Me and anyone else. The stereotypical idea of what a lesbian should look like is still alive and well.

I say, yes I do! I am what gay looks like. Me and anyone else. The stereotypical idea of what a lesbian should look like is still alive and well.

Some people seem to embrace it. I saw a tweet the other day where someone described herself as "a visibly queer woman". What does queer look like? It's so regressive.

But on average, butch lesbians do look more masculine.

Of course they do, or they wouldn't be butch lesbians, just lesbians.

‘ I say, yes I do! I am what gay looks like. Me and anyone else. The stereotypical idea of what a lesbian should look like is still alive and well’

So true. People find me more ‘palatable’ somehow because I’m a mum, don’t look particularly ‘dykey’ to them but if you look a bit more closely - rarely wears a dress, never wears heels, short nails, super handy with DIY stuff, car stuff, oh, and married to a woman ... it’s not that hard to suss.

@BlackForestCake

Of course they do, or they wouldn't be butch lesbians, just lesbians.

Its worrying that this needs explaining

The stereotypical idea of what a lesbian should look like is still alive and well.

In the days when I was young enough to hang around the clubs, which at the time was about the only way to make any contact at all with other gay people, I was inquisitioned plenty of times for not looking sufficiently stereotypically lesbian. I hadn't assumed the proper costume.

Decades later it's apparent there are always going to be tedious bores of all sexes who feel entitled to go about getting in other people's faces to police them, their language and their choices in order to try and keep everyone obedient to being stuffed in the proper places in their mental boxes under their own choice of labels. And getting very uncomfortable and cross when others won't do what they're told, or obey the current fashions.

Plus ca change.

‘Of course they do, or they wouldn't be butch lesbians, just lesbians.’

😂

I think it's a matter of both aesthetic & masculine imo....Butch isn't a slur btw, saying it's rude just perpetuates that false & unhelpful idea

Another zombie thread. Stop it.