When people say 'butch lesbians look like men' I get offended. Thoughts?

[AnnListersBlister]

My lodger and I have this argument periodically.

Some responses I may give- 'men do not own that look'. 'If a woman wants to wear traditionally male clothing, she can-she wants to wear those clothes. It doesn't mean she 'looks like a man' or 'wants to look like a man'.

'Why do you assume a woman wants to 'look like a man' maybe that's just how she feels comfortable'

'Females would dress this way to hide their lesbianism in times gone by, nowadays they don't or shouldnt need to-this is a good thing!'
Etc etc.

He won't have it. I find it offensive and blatantly sexist.

Lesbian erasure is such an issue at the moment I feel. I don't like it. I feel like his comments are so sexist. When others say it, they tend to listen to my reasoning and take it on board and understand what I am getting at but he doesn't. I'm wondering how else I can handle it and also, if others think I am right?

I'm a lesbian, I am feminine though. I am currently seeing a woman who presents as masculine. She isn't offended by his comments-so maybe I shouldn't be either?
What do you feel on this?

I used to have short hair and be quite skinny. I wore exclusively female clothing, from mainstream women's stores, like Gap, H&M, Clarks etc. Not very feminine clothes - trousers, black shoes, plain turtleneck, coat etc and I didn't wear makeup.

Men (always men, never women) started thinking I was a man. I'd get "What can I get for you Sir?" and "Excuse me lads" when ordering food, standing at a bar etc.

I honestly think that for a lot of men, the absence of explicit feminine signals (makeup, long styled hair, skirts) dumps someone straight into the male category. Being a woman, to them, is nothing too do with having a female body with all its associated inconveniences, it's about the performatively feminine behaviour.

I grew my hair longer and learnt how to do a French braid. I no longer get mistaken for a man.

When I started reading this board I started looking more at ordinary people. It is not that uncommon to be unsure whether someone is a man of a woman. For example someone a few seats down at the theatre had very masculine features under a female hair style. However when they stood up they walked like a woman. I still have not decided whether the short stocky person with lots of tattoos who works in a local cafe is male or female. When it comes down to it I don't really care. I like diversity and how someone dresses does not impact on my life.

That's sex. Sexuality is a another step away. We may all have made assumptions about someone's sexuality which turn out not to be true, as same sex attracted people come in all shapes and sizes. Again, unless I were sexually interested in someone, why would I care.

The same should apply to your lodger.

I would say it's shorthand for 'presents in a way conventionally associated with the conventions of female/male dress/appearance/grooming etc'.

But 'looks like a man/woman' is also shorthand for that. Obviously it doesn't mean 'looks like every single man/woman'. But the would you not agree that 'presents as masculine' and 'looks like a man' are generalisations/shorthand for exactly the same set of conventions of male dress/appearance/grooming etc?

Men (always men, never women) started thinking I was a man. I'd get "What can I get for you Sir?" and "Excuse me lads" when ordering food, standing at a bar etc

Same, i still get it now

But to be very fair when they look at my face they apologise

( so sorry you’ve got a face like that...hahahahahaa. Joke)

Invisible, I think you're right when you say this:

I honestly think that for a lot of men, the absence of explicit feminine signals (makeup, long styled hair, skirts) dumps someone straight into the male category. Being a woman, to them, is nothing too do with having a female body with all its associated inconveniences, it's about the performatively feminine behaviour.

And that's why we've got all this transgender bs going on, with the requirement for trans people to live in their 'acquired gender' for two years to obtain a GRC. What is a woman? Performative behaviour, according to the GRA.

My eyes are on stalks at dearfriends post 😳 I didn’t think anyone seriously thought like that any more. Fucking hell.

Anyway, I’d be shutting down conversations like that pronto, OP, it is sexist and silly. I’d be rehearsing my best withering stare for the next time he brings it up, and firmly tell him that you won’t be having that conversation again.

didn’t think anyone seriously thought like that any more. Fucking hell

I have friends and family who say this all the time in respect of ds1 and his boyfriend

Wow, rufus, that’s horrible

That pales into insignificance by the amount of times ive been told

Hes just confused

He’ll grow out of it

If you keep talking about him being gay you will make him gay 😳

(I did NOT know that was how it worked)

To be fair ds1 has been told by other gay friends that he is too straight to be gay 🤔

@SophocIestheFox

My eyes are on stalks at dearfriends post 😳 I didn’t think anyone seriously thought like that any more. Fucking hell.

Anyway, I’d be shutting down conversations like that pronto, OP, it is sexist and silly. I’d be rehearsing my best withering stare for the next time he brings it up, and firmly tell him that you won’t be having that conversation again.

You’d be surprised, a friend had a pretty typical experience of this recently (open insta and he is happy for it to be shared to raise awareness).

“Who is the woman” is a fairly common question, there is no woman, thats literally the point. Its also probably the most PG of the innapropriate questions. You wouldn’t ask a stranger “so do you spit or swallow?” Or “do you go down on your wife?” Yet lots of weird people happily do it to gay people or spend their time thinking about gay people having sex. Its really really weird.

Sorry, I didn’t mean my post to come off as minimising or disbelieving- I am obviously aware that homophobia is alive and kicking, and enough gay friends have regaled me with horror stories that I shouldn’t be a bit surprised. I was a bit shocked to see it so blatantly on FWR, though, which I perhaps foolishly believe is above that kind of thing.

That conversation is off the scale, simon!

simon

😳

@SophocIestheFox

Sorry, I didn’t mean my post to come off as minimising or disbelieving- I am obviously aware that homophobia is alive and kicking, and enough gay friends have regaled me with horror stories that I shouldn’t be a bit surprised. I was a bit shocked to see it so blatantly on FWR, though, which I perhaps foolishly believe is above that kind of thing.

That conversation is off the scale, simon!

You don’t at all come across like that.

Bloody hell, both on the homophobia and sexism your friend seems to have found a direct line to the 1950s, Simon.

Was your lodger trying to say that butch lesbians often have masculine shaped bodies which move in a masculine type way, because if so I'd agree with him and surely that is how people read another's sexuality via gaydar?

Regarding clothing and presentation I'd say that is a consequence of body shape. I'm female but have a masculine shaped body that rarely fits into clothes designed for women. Even when I was a size 8, women's jeans/trousers that fitted on the waist would hang off my bum and visa versa. I've got no boobs to fill out fitted tops and I can't wear dresses or skirts (not that I want to) as they make me look ridiculous. Well meaning family who have persuaded me try on something more 'girly' whilst shopping all end up agreeing and I remember someone once exclaiming "omg you are right, you look like a sack of potatoes"

Or rather, what we all would have hoped would have been the 1950s.

Hi Op, I’m not sure if all these posts have helped you? One question that you asked that I’m not sure we gave out opinions on.. yes you are right to be offended.

You weren’t born yesterday. You have had a chance because of enforced fridge-sharing to bond with lodger, and have had a lifetime of exposure to well meaning relatives and perfume adverts about the way women should be.

We will naturally be hurt by someone close to us pointing out “flaws” in a romantic interest, and the echoes of all those other voices and images will make this worse.

It is also OK to ask someone accompanying you to dress in a way you find pleasing and this applies to platonic friends and romantic partners. They can say no, obvs, “I would like to go to dinner in winter in postman shorts,” but discussing outfits is common in friendships and partnerships.

As a butch woman (though not lesbian, bi) I am both a little offended, and just a bit eyerolley at people like this tbh. I am forever 'misgendered'. Always by men though, not yet a woman, though the potential is there I guess. I HATE being used as a prop in TRAs arguments, even though its quite clear they give no shits about the 'masculine presenting female people' they use to attempt to shore up the argument for males in female spaces though

I know a few people who are sadly of the 'one is the man, one is the woman!' school of thought about gay couples. Also offensive nonsense.

Your lodger is rude - especially as he must know about your partner.

But why does he continue to bring this up? Does he genuinely ‘not get it’ and is trying to discuss with you until he does get it? Is he interested in you himself? Wondering why you don’t find men attractive? Just trying to have a dig at you and make you feel bad? Realised this is something that ‘presses your buttons’ so does it as a kind of power play? Is just completely unaware and blabbing out the first thing that comes into his head?

I think the answer to the above question would inform my response. A polite discussion about sexuality, appearances, clothing, stereotypes, etc is very different from someone trying to undermine you and taunt you.

If he’s acting in bad faith, I wouldn’t engage with him. Show you’re completely unbothered by his opinion and don’t get drawn into disagreements.

@ErrolTheDragon

Bloody hell, both on the homophobia and sexism your friend seems to have found a direct line to the 1950s, Simon.

I’m amazed she allowed herself to leave the kitchen!

Was your lodger trying to say that butch lesbians often have masculine shaped bodies which move in a masculine type way, because if so I'd agree with him and surely that is how people read another's sexuality via gaydar?

I assume you don't agree Simon?

This thread jumped the shark.

Um, women move like women, because they have female skeletal structure. I can't see how their sexuality or clothing preferences would influence their gait.

Sexuality doesn't dictate body shape, either. This feels like a whole body version of phrenology.

The problem with your arguement Potholes is that it doesn't fit in with the real life experience of the majority.