Breastfeeding support group wants to allow males

[user643899]

I am in a Facebook group for breastfeeding support.

There's a new comment from admin asking if we'd be comfortable with males joining the group, then a subsequent poll.

I commented on said poll, "I am a feminist. Call me a terf. Biologically you are male or female. Feel free to identify as what you wish but you cannot change your sex. This group is for breastfeeding. Only females can breastfeed."

I was called a bigot. One comment read, "you aren't a feminist. Feminists want equality for all genders." I responded,"Equality for both sexes, yes. Female is a sex. Feminism derives from the word, female."

Now my original comment has been deleted. I daren't comment again through fear of removal.

I'm upset. This is the group I used when I had thrush. I posted pictures of the thrush on my boob. I can't be comfortable in a group made for my sex.

Facebook is not a Safe space. A man could make or hack a women's account. Awnser the admin questions and are in the group. You don't need I'd or anything...

I wasn't aware men had breasts

Men can get breast cancer, so yes they have breasts. I've always been irritated by the term chest feeding, so unnecessary.

And no, men have no place in a breastfeeding group, transmen yes, but men and transwomen no.

I’m shocked you felt comfortable posting pictures of your breasts on a FB group. Anyone even if female can screen shot that, anyone not female can use a fake name or profile.

Set up a new group that’s explicitly for women only and move on.

I am pondering why the group for chest feeders didn't work out.

Probably insufficient members and posts? You need a certain level of traffic in FB groups for them to be useful.

@user643899
OP I'm also in the same Facebook group and I think the way they've gone about it is ridiculous - for a start asking whether people would be comfortable with it and then any opinions that were against the idea got immediately pounced upon and then comments turned off.

I actually don't know how I feel about it - apart from the term 'chest feeding' sends me into a mild rage (if you're so secure in your gender that you KNOW you're a man when you were born a woman, why are you then going on to have babies and breastfeed and then getting pissy with people saying you have breasts... having a baby and breastfeeding are things that a woman can do, not a man). I'm not necessarily against transmen joining if it means they get support for breastfeeding which is hard work at the best of times, and I'm fully aware that Facebook is Facebook and if I post a video of my nip anyone might see it.

But it's descended into a huge slanging match and the members are being arseholes. I'm nearly at the end of my breastfeeding and I'm very tempted to leave the group even though it's been a huge source of comfort for me for the past year and I've directed many friends to it.

I'm with you OP that the group should be kept as a safe space dedicated to serving the needs of its current members. Others who aren't satisfied can always join other groups or create their own. Can I just clarify the following though?

A) I take it that the question asked was specifically about admitting transmen and transwomen who practice chestfeeding (broadly defined) to join the group? There has been no suggestion of allowing Dads generally to join?

B) Do you object to transmen joining the group? IMO their masculine appearance may be disconcerting to some members and there is a risk that they will try to police language used in the group. Others might take the view that they should be permitted because they remain female and can breastfeed. I think you might fall into this latter camp from your posts but am genuinely unclear.

C) Do you object to transwomen joining the group (my understanding is that you do)? IMO transwomen should not join such a group. AFAIK lactation has only been induced in a transwoman once (and the ethics of inducing lactation in transwomen seem questionable until/unless it's shown to be safe and the milk produced is identical). If chestfeeding is being defined by the group to include transwomen putting a baby on their (male, non-milk producing nipple) then that's really odd. I cannot see how that would be comforting to the baby. In any event, if people do that they really need their own group as it's fundamentally different from breastfeeding.

Thanks.

Endemic Panda, I think the OP also mentioned transwomen who are using a Supplementary Nursing System or SNS, as described by GlowingOrb earlier on this thread. Again though, I would think that is something requiring quite specialist support, not general breastfeeding support.

Comfort nursing (allowing a baby to suck on breasts/nipples of someone with no milk supply) is something I first came across in lesbian parent groups, where the non-birthing mother may offer a breast to settle a very sucky baby instead of a dummy, bond with it, etc. I can see it might be an appropriate thing to do under some circumstances, but again, not really something you’d need a breastfeeding support group for.

[quote HotGlueGun]@Duckwit actually that's not true. It IS possible for a transman to have chest surgery and still breastfeed. Yes they are biologically women but they present as MALE. Why would they want to be there? [/quote]
They would have to use a supplementary feeding system as their breast tissue which includes milk ducts etc have been removed - so actually, they are not technically breastfeeding, they're formula feeding via an artificial device. They would most likely need specialist advice and support for this. An actual breastfeeding support group would not have this.

If you are using a system, that is in a different arena to breastfeeding. With a breastfeeding group, you are particularly getting guidance and support in relation to your body's ability to produce milk for your baby. The breastfeeding group I attended wasn't a general mother/parent and baby session. It was to help with breastfeeding.

Also, using your nipple as a dummy isn't breastfeeding either. Again no breastfeeding advice needed.

@june2007

If you were that shy you can use an alias this is online were talking about not a face to face group.

Why should a woman use an alias to join a breast feeding group? Again an example of women moving over to pacify men or 0.1% of the population.

Breasts will never be normalised so that excuse for allowing men to join a breast feeding group can be rejected. We have gone too far down the route of sexualising breasts. And that is also one of the reasons why a lot of young mothers do not breast feed as they don’t see their breasts as baby feeders.

[quote MoonJelly]Can men breastfeed?

Yes.

health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/parts/why-men-have-nipples1.htm[/quote]
Only with drugs. Which pass through to the baby. Just like alcohol.

Could you pivot your reply that you really want transwomen to feel supported in a group that is particular to their needs so encourage the admins to create/continue with the new group but everyone in the existing group will participate in an ‘engagement strategy’ to help get the trans group going?
That way they can try again, get some support and your group stays private?
Best of luck.

I think someone is shit stirring or having you on.

Trans men (born female) are dysphoric about their breasts, often have them removed and refer to their top half as ‘chest’ and chest feeding.

At least that’s what actual trans men say.

“Chestfeeding (a spin on "breastfeeding") is a term coined to include trans men who nurse their infants.”

www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/a63217/chestfeeding/

What It's Like to Chestfeed
“The many obstacles trans men and other transmasculine people run into when feeding infants”

www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/08/chestfeeding/497015/

I am sorry to hear that this has happened to a group of mothers of young children during a pandemic.

Of course there is a huge difference between ‘normalizing breastfeeding’ and seeking assistance on line when the clinics are closed. Normalizing breastfeeding does not include allowing people access to seeing your latching technique in public. It is quite a stretch to make this connection.

There seems to be a growing, though still miniscule, number of transwomen who are inducing a drug laden cocktail to feed infants. It Isn’t hard to find their blogs and media reports. Should they have access to a fb group of women needing support when the women don’t want males present? It is for the individual group to decide surely. I would feel very uncomfortable sharing photos (because the clinics are closed and this is my only option FFS) in that scenario.

And then there is the situation where you don’t know if they even are breastfeeding an infant or they are there for reasons of their own. Like those who have pregnancy photography done. You cannot dent that there are transwomen doing this, they put their professionally done portraits up for people to see. They may be in that group for reasons that are not to support women breastfeeding at all.

I hope you can find another group, I can see how difficult it would be though with groups and clinics closed.

When I was breastfeeding, I seem to remember that they urged caution if the mother was using medication/drugs when the effect on the baby was unknown.

Is that not still the case?

quaagers and dido

I would normally be saying the same thing about photo security- anything posted on line ever has the ability to be then used for other purposes.

However, what is the solution if you are needing breastfeeding advice and you cannot get it any other way? You also don’t know if this poster is having to self isolate. Do you have suggestions that do not involve a private lactation nurse?

If this is about allowing transwomen into the group (I'm still not totally clear on your stance on allowing transmen into the group?) then perhaps you could question why and transwoman needs access to a breastfeeding group? And make the point that a transwomen who is artificially lactating (gross) would probably need specialist support that they are not going to find in a standard women's breastfeeding group.

I am another who would be very wary of posting pictures of my boobs online. Yes these groups are very loosely vetted but there is no real way of policing that and literally anyone could be on that group. I am on a FB group for women with breast cancer and the questions I was asked to join were questions that anyone could answer, and I am always aware that not everyone will necessarily be genuine. This is probably even more so the case in an online group about breastfeeding, especially if there are a lot of members.

But I still agree that the overall stance for a breastfeeding support group should be 'no men, however they identify'.

@Cailleach1

When I was breastfeeding, I seem to remember that they urged caution if the mother was using medication/drugs when the effect on the baby was unknown.

Is that not still the case?

If it gives a man validation, then..... No, it's not the case.

Inducing lactation with all sorts of drugs which will almost definitely pass onto the baby through the milk is something to be celebrated because it means a male is getting to do exactly what he wants, so nothing else matters - do keep up!

As an aside, how many transwomen out there are actually doing this, that it would warrant opening up breastfeeding support groups to them? I thought there was a story last year about one transwoman managing to lactate small amounts of milk with a cocktail of drugs, and that was probably in America.

What It's Like to Chestfeed
“The many obstacles trans men and other transmasculine people run into when feeding infants”
www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/08/chestfeeding/497015/

From that article:
When Trevor MacDonald started chestfeeding about five years ago, he didn't know anyone who had attempted it, nor had any of his doctors ever encountered someone who had. In fact, he was shocked that his body could even produce milk.

I now have a rather odd image in my head of Trevor McDonald breastfeeding a baby after finishing the news at ten

I agree, op, that a breastfeeding group should be single sex, exclusive of males. I can see that your initial posts were slightly confusing, conflating sex and gender-possibly in an attempt to avoid explicitly saying the truth: trans-identifying-men /transwomen have no place in the group.
It is interesting that the posters who seem entirely baffled by your posts are the same names that appear on every post in FWR rejecting the need for female spaces and, frankly, dickpandering left right and centre.

I'm due my first baby in a week or two and thought I'd check to see whether this related to one of the breastfeeding groups I'm in. It does, I've seen the poll, and I've now left the group.

I'm not transphobic in any way, people can identify however the hell they want, FTM trans people can lactate and need support too, but I fundamentally disagree that a (currently) female safe-space bf group should open up to males unless 100% of the participants agree. The vote on the poll was currently 70:30 (ish) in favour of males being allowed in but for me I'm not comfortable with them ignoring the needs of that 30%.

I wouldn't even feel comfortable with male partners being in there, never mind MTF trans people who can't even produce milk without artificially stimulating it with chemicals. Women post pictures of videos of their latch, of blebs, pictures of their babies breastfeeding - really personal things. Unless every single woman in the group agrees to allowing males it should be a hard no.

It is interesting that the posters who seem entirely baffled by your posts are the same names that appear on every post in FWR rejecting the need for female spaces and, frankly, dickpandering left right and centre.

Nope, I agree that the group should remain free of men, they have no business being there and would make many women who rely on the group for info and support feel uncomfortable and unable to participate; which is a real shame. The OPs title says about men, then transmen and transwomen are mentioned- it was unclear what OP was on about as one group of them are biologically women, and it's not all men as the title suggests. Why not just say transwomen have no business being added to a group that doesn't cater to their unique needs?

@Soontobe60 which was precisely the point I was getting at. They need different support to natal women breastfeeding in a natural way and so should have their own page, specific for their needs.

@Winesalot

quaagers and dido

I would normally be saying the same thing about photo security- anything posted on line ever has the ability to be then used for other purposes.

However, what is the solution if you are needing breastfeeding advice and you cannot get it any other way? You also don’t know if this poster is having to self isolate. Do you have suggestions that do not involve a private lactation nurse?

I have no suggestions at all. I was just pointing out that if the OP thinks she has 100% security posting pictures on the Internet then she is very naive- regardless of what the group says it is. It's up to her to weigh up the risk. That risk is there whether or not men or trans people are allowed to join.

I'm a bit surprised that the OP and others seem to want to exclude trans men. It's frequently said on here that gender critical feminists are not trans exclusionary as they welcome trans men because they are actually biological women.