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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Breastfeeding support group wants to allow males

306 replies

user643899 · 22/11/2020 20:03

I am in a Facebook group for breastfeeding support.

There's a new comment from admin asking if we'd be comfortable with males joining the group, then a subsequent poll.

I commented on said poll, "I am a feminist. Call me a terf. Biologically you are male or female. Feel free to identify as what you wish but you cannot change your sex. This group is for breastfeeding. Only females can breastfeed."

I was called a bigot. One comment read, "you aren't a feminist. Feminists want equality for all genders." I responded,"Equality for both sexes, yes. Female is a sex. Feminism derives from the word, female."

Now my original comment has been deleted. I daren't comment again through fear of removal.

I'm upset. This is the group I used when I had thrush. I posted pictures of the thrush on my boob. I can't be comfortable in a group made for my sex.

OP posts:
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TyroTerf · 24/11/2020 12:17

Posting before reading thread so apols if this has been covered.

Feminists want equality for all genders.

That's bollocks. Feminism fights for all female genders to be viewed as equally human. All the different "types" of female adult human: butches and femmes, maidens mothers and crones, madonnas and whores, crazy cat ladies and jet-setting career women, transmen and t*rfs - the recipients of all of these "genders" are of equal human worth.

The myriad genders of male are not the priority.

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 24/11/2020 15:29

@TyroTerf

Posting before reading thread so apols if this has been covered.

Feminists want equality for all genders.

That's bollocks. Feminism fights for all female genders to be viewed as equally human. All the different "types" of female adult human: butches and femmes, maidens mothers and crones, madonnas and whores, crazy cat ladies and jet-setting career women, transmen and t*rfs - the recipients of all of these "genders" are of equal human worth.

The myriad genders of male are not the priority.

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Cailleach1 · 24/11/2020 16:02

This is terrible. The numbers of mothers breastfeeding is so reduced. The difference a good leader and support for the mother is invaluable. At a time when a mother needs all the support she can get. Just a little tip, tweak or reassurance can make all the difference. And the people running that group are walking over the very people it is set up to help to pander to a different group of people.

I was so lucky to breastfeed when I did. My group was breastfeeding mothers with a nurse for leader. It was all about supporting us and no complicating or diluting that focus. Never mind trying to gaslight us. I hope you are far enough along that you won't suffer from the lack of proper support.

Coffeeandcocopops · 24/11/2020 16:10

@TyroTerf

Posting before reading thread so apols if this has been covered.

Feminists want equality for all genders.

That's bollocks. Feminism fights for all female genders to be viewed as equally human. All the different "types" of female adult human: butches and femmes, maidens mothers and crones, madonnas and whores, crazy cat ladies and jet-setting career women, transmen and t*rfs - the recipients of all of these "genders" are of equal human worth.

The myriad genders of male are not the priority.

Absolutely
BertieBotts · 24/11/2020 16:17

I'd find out who the stepped-down admins are and PM them. Maybe they know of a new group you can join. I'd also try and search for my pictures and delete them. (Search your own surname in the group).

AnotherEmma · 24/11/2020 16:26

"Gender neutral language for pregnancy, childbirth, and breastfeeding is actively harmful for women like me that need to find that power within to succeed."

It's actively harmful for all women, and especially women who struggle with pregnancy, childbirth and/or breastfeeding for whatever reason.
It makes me fucking furious. It made me especially angry and upset when I was pregnant and struggling. Now I'm no longer pregnant - breastfeeding though - and my hormones have calmed down, but I am never going to change my strong opinion about this issue.

OP, on a practical note. If you still need breastfeeding support, ask your HV to refer you to the infant feeding team. I had a video call with mine and I believe you can send photos and videos securely, too. Also look up breastfeeding support groups nationally and locally as I'm sure many of them will be offering confidential one-to-one support with the option to share photos and videos securely.

DubiousGoals · 24/11/2020 18:31

Trans men (born female) are dysphoric about their breasts, often have them removed and refer to their top half as ‘chest’ and chest feeding.

So dysphoric about their natal female bodies that others have to change their language, yet simultaneously willing to go through pregnancy and birth?

Dizzy1804 · 24/11/2020 19:30

@Duckwit

Surely rather than going down the 'I'm a TERF' route you would have been better just questioning why transwomen need to join a group about breastfeeding?
If only GC women would be nice.
CharlieParley · 26/11/2020 00:16

[quote MoonJelly]Can men breastfeed?

Yes.

health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/parts/why-men-have-nipples1.htm[/quote]
No.

Did you read the article and then - much more importantly - check the sources used to support this claim by the author?

There is no evidence whatsoever that male humans can feed a baby like female humans can. Not with the use of drugs, not naturally.

If there was, there would be no need for the author of this article to misrepresent anthropological research and resort to using unverified anecdotes about men supposedly breastfeeding.

If men could nourish babies with breast milk produced by their own bodies, we would all know a man who had done it. We would not have had countless babies starving after their mother died without a wet nurse and before formula was widely available. Or when their malnourished mothers couldn't produce any milk.

So, back to the article. It cites the following sources as evidence that men can breastfeed:

slate.com/technology/2011/05/male-lactation-can-a-33-year-old-guy-learn-to-breast-feed.html

(A man attempts to induce lactation by pumping for several hours a day and taking every supplement available. He gives up after more than seven weeks of zero success, but remains convinced it is possible for men to breastfeed because a man in Indonesia breastfed his infant daughter after his wife died in childbirth. Because male babies may secrete fluids from their nipples after birth. Because men who have cancer or other health conditions may secrete fluid from their nipples. Because he's seen videos of men squeezing tiny amounts of fluid from their nipples. Because men from a much studied hunter gatherer tribe breastfeed their babies.)

The article you cite as evidence that males can breastfeed bases its claims on the same evidence. (All of these articles do)

So let's factcheck:

  1. The Indonesian widower does not, of course, as reported at the time, breastfeed* both of his children. After his 18-month-old daughter refuses to take to the bottle he offers her after her mother dies in childbirth, she is inconsolable. He calms his toddler by letting her suckle on his nipple. His claims of actually feeding her in this way are unverified. The child already eats other food. Miraculously, the newborn has no problem accepting formula milk. If this very poor man had been able to actually feed his newborn, he would surely have preferred that to buying formula.

*Breastfeeding means actually feeding a child with milk produced by your own body. As many women struggling with nursing know much to their distress, producing a tiny amount of milk does not equate to feeding a baby.

  1. The Aka. That famous pygmy tribe in Africa. Apparently Barry Hewlett, a famous anthropologist, has observed the men in this tribe breastfeeding their babies (that is actually feeding). A claim publicised by a fathers' rights group some years ago.

Here is Professor Barry Hewlett's official staff page on the Washington State University website:

anthro.vancouver.wsu.edu/people/hewlett/

On the bottom it lists his publications spanning several decades of research. I would highly recommend reading them, but I'm interested in anthropology. I had read up on the Aka before, so I already knew the claim misrepresented the professor's reported observations. I read about a dozen of his papers or so for this factcheck. Highly readable, particularly intriguing are his comparisons of infant care in different hunter gatherer tribes.

What he found was that Aka men will allow their nursing child to suckle on their nipple for comfort if his wife is unavailable to nurse. Instead of the dummy often used for this purpose hereabouts.

In one of the much more recently published papers, the authors specifically define breastfeeding as maternal nursing (and nursing done by other women in lieu of a baby's mother). I can only guess as to why they felt this was necessary. But these misrepresentations of his findings may have something to do with it.

And that's it. That's the sum total of evidence. Not for want of trying I hasten to add. Countless men have tried. There's after all quite a few videos with men squeezing their nipples hard to produce a drop of fluid. But in males that is typically due to abnormal hormone levels, usually caused by health conditions or, in the case of male newborns who produce so-called witches milk, the remnants of maternal hormones.

There is still no evidence that even one man has ever managed to actually feed a baby by breastfeeding.

So please, don't post unscientific nonsense to support the upsetting changes to the OP's previously female-only breastfeeding support group.

I'm sorry user643899 to hear about your group being disrupted in this way. Unfortunately this isn't the first and won't be the last support group of this kind affected in this way. The only non-dramatic solution I know is setting up a vetted and (initially at least) private alternate group for those members who continue to prefer a female-only support setting.

fastwigglylines · 26/11/2020 01:31

I'm on a Breasfeeding facebook group where the fallout from this issue was briefly discussed. I can't believe the staggering naivity of so many of the women posting on this. They will not allow any discussion of men joining breastfeeding groups because of fetishising women. Anyone who wants to discuss this possibility is called a TERF and told they're making the non-binary members feel "unsafe" as they're buying into predator myths, apparently.

Women are policing other women, no one is allowed to talk about this very male persuit - fetishising women. Someone's even said "well what about women fetishising women". Sorry but do they really think women join breastfeeding groups to wank over other women? And that certain men wouldn't, given half the chance?

A well known and well respected professional breastfeeding advocate has been bullied out of the group for daring to try to have a respectful conversation about it.

They also won't allow any discussion of the possibility of AGP types trying to lactate because of their fetishisation of themselves doing "female" things. Any hint of this is met by outraged accusations of bigotry.

They haven't a fucking clue. But they are the majority voice on these groups.

fastwigglylines · 26/11/2020 01:35

To be clear, "female" is in quotes above because although breastfeeding is 100% a female persuit, AGPs simulating BFing for their own gratification is not what I would call BFing.

fastwigglylines · 26/11/2020 01:36

... and isn't "female" much as they might like to imagine it is. It's AGP men, using a baby as a prop in their fantasy.

greyinganddecaying · 26/11/2020 01:42

@CharlieParley - that's a great summary - thank you!

VulvaPerson · 26/11/2020 01:43

What the fuck is it with people like that, who feel 'unsafe' because someone has a differing opinion to them? Always strikes me as ridiculously melodramatic.

fastwigglylines · 26/11/2020 02:05

I don't believe they feel unsafe at all. I think they've learnt it's an effective way to shut down conversation they don't like. I think they feel affronted, not unsafe.

FWRLurker · 26/11/2020 02:46

Before my daughter was born I used to go on r baby bumps on reddit. One of the big rules there was “NO PERVERTS” because men posting there to get off was a big problem. It was also said that anyone could post but the purpose of the sub was to support pregnant mothers so all posts should be in that vein. I went back there recently and lo and behold the “no perverts” rule is gone and meanwhile there’s a lot more rules about everyone being welcome etc. sigh 😔

DaisiesandButtercups · 26/11/2020 06:58

Thank you CharlieParley for that excellent and informative post!

IcedGem · 26/11/2020 18:47

That's a great summary, @CharlieParley! Makes me even more dubious (if that was possible) about trans-identified male Gabrielle Darone's claim that Gabrielle has donated three litres of breastmilk Gabrielle has expressed in approximately a month after a 'simulated pregnancy'.

To @user643899 - I agree with you, males have no place in a breastfeeding support group that was originally set up for females. That's the point, really. Just like Facebook doesn't allow a previously private group to change privacy to public, because those who signed up with the expectation of privacy may have things they'd posted with that in mind exposed to all and sundry.

By all means, the admins of the group could set up another group and invite everyone to it. But no moving the boundaries of the original one, that's just not on.

EarthSight · 26/11/2020 19:52

Maybe men could run their own breastfeedinng advice groups so women can continue to post photos without fear that weirdo men might look at them or post them elsewhere?

tiktok · 26/11/2020 23:13

I’m working my way through this thread.
People who are born men cannot breastfeed. They may produce something from their chest with hormones. They may be able to give skin to skin contact to a baby. A baby may latch on to their nipples. But they cannot nurture and grow a baby. The case studies into this are a crock. Here’s a great blog that explains why, but in fact anyone who knows about the physiology of lactation knows it is not possible.

lascapigliata8.wordpress.com/2018/03/26/analysis-of-study-of-induced-lactation-in-trans-identified-man/

Lactation porn is a thing. Some men have a kink for breastfeeding.

Women supporting women to help nurture babies is a wonderful, precious resource. Sisters, mothers, friends, trained supporters.....all vital and it’s the fact they’re women that is so valuable.

That’s not to minimise partners’ support which research and observation show, so convincingly, make a real difference.

But outside the couple, female-only sources of female support are worth keeping female.

Any men in a group changes things. Some women don’t want men there and will not seek that support. A man - id’ing as trans or not - trying to bf will certainly change things....even more.

Emmelina · 26/11/2020 23:21

If a person is not a parent or close friend/relative of a breastfeeding mother, they have no business hanging around in a breastfeeding group. I used to be a breastfeeding peer supporter and ran a local support group on Facebook, we had all kinds of pervs trying to join. After a few gross joins, we had to put it on approvals only and state if we couldn’t tell much about them from what’s publicly visible they would not be granted access.

tiktok · 26/11/2020 23:25

@fastwigglylines I have DM’d you.

user643899 · 29/11/2020 10:17

I will update this soon.

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usertemp1010 · 29/11/2020 13:01

Just seen a daily mail article about La Lèche group about this subject. Not often I agree with that paper but someone's been on a roll this morning there Smile

user643899 · 29/11/2020 13:18

@usertemp1010

Just seen a daily mail article about La Lèche group about this subject. Not often I agree with that paper but someone's been on a roll this morning there Smile
Oh I saw that. I'm already raging. I've got lots of screenshots to share. I'm so angry at the group.
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