Breastfeeding support group wants to allow males

[user643899]

I am in a Facebook group for breastfeeding support.

There's a new comment from admin asking if we'd be comfortable with males joining the group, then a subsequent poll.

I commented on said poll, "I am a feminist. Call me a terf. Biologically you are male or female. Feel free to identify as what you wish but you cannot change your sex. This group is for breastfeeding. Only females can breastfeed."

I was called a bigot. One comment read, "you aren't a feminist. Feminists want equality for all genders." I responded,"Equality for both sexes, yes. Female is a sex. Feminism derives from the word, female."

Now my original comment has been deleted. I daren't comment again through fear of removal.

I'm upset. This is the group I used when I had thrush. I posted pictures of the thrush on my boob. I can't be comfortable in a group made for my sex.

The OP has clarified and said it was males that she was uncomfortable with. Males. not females who identified as men.

So, having felt a sense of despair with my own breastfeeding experience, I have every empathy for a mother who cannot, due to Covid, get help any other way than to post pictures of their breast, latch etc. I too would join one of these groups out of dire need. Because I had NO other support available.

Hence, there is even greater need to have better security and vetting around membership don’t you think?

[quote FirstClassFlightHome]@ifIwerenotanandroid Why should she be pushed out? Men do not belong in a breastfeeding group. Period.[/quote]
I agree that she shouldn't have to. The group admin, having asked if it was OK, should have listened to the existing members of the group.

It's just a possible way forward.

I'm a bit surprised that the OP and others seem to want to exclude trans men. It's frequently said on here that gender critical feminists are not trans exclusionary as they welcome trans men because they are actually biological women.

The problem with including transmen in groups like these (ones that specifically discuss female biological function) is the inevitable language policing that comes with it (sometimes by wokish women on behalf of transmen, who haven’t actually even requested it themselves).

Women are eventually banned from using words like ‘mother’ ‘breastfeeding’ and starting posts with salutations such as ‘Hey ladies!’
It all becomes a depressing and alienating purity spiral and most importantly of all, it gets in the way of the groups main aim, supporting as many women to achieve their breastfeeding aims as possible.

The solution is multiple groups, some that are solely for breastfeeding women who identify as women and use language that reflects that, and some that are NB/Transman focused (but are perhaps open to women who are happy to use non-dysphoria triggering language at all times, so as there are sufficient numbers to actually make a group).

It’s much the same as the argument for third spaces for lavatories - add some extra provision for those who don’t want to use the one provided for their birth sex, but don’t just make it ALL unisex and thus harder for the majority for the sake of a very small minority.

The problem is that breastfeeding and pregnancy groups is are ALL bending over to be kind and inclusive and thus accidentally making the goals they set out to achieve harder and harder to reach.

See the recent thread on La Leche League Australia (bearing in mind that for decades, LLLs hugely, globally, influential book was titled ‘The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding’, so they must I’ve once believed in the value of very woman-centric language).

A breastfeeding group should be open to all females, but I do believe female-centric language is critical. One of the key factors in overcoming our breastfeeding challenges was my embracing my uniquely female power. We can grow and nourish a human being. As a cancer survivor with an auto-immune disorder who suffered from 9 months of hyperemesis, the fact that my very flawed body could grow a healthy child was a thought that kept me going. My husband could support me, but I was woman with the power to literally give life via milk. Gender neutral language for pregnancy, childbirth, and breastfeeding is actively harmful for women like me that need to find that power within to succeed.

Isn't the entire point of a breastfeeding group that it is focussed on women who are breastfeeding?

A new mother left the group I attended because she turned completely to bottle feeding. I wouldn't have joined a 'system' feeding group as I was not doing that. I wouldn't join and sit in on a group for men who suffer from erectile dysfunction either. If every women's group is for everything and everybody, the focus and purpose is lost.

Breast feeding is an amazing. It was a revelation that from the colostrum first came in, a woman's body makes a nourishment appropriate for the age of her baby/infant and changes as they grow.

Yes there are books, but in the absence of female relations to ask, nothing can replace a good breastfeeding group and knowledgeable and practical leader.

I would leave, and find a female only group. This one is clearly determined to go down the mixed sex group, and you have been marked as a 'problem' if your posts were deleted and are probably on borrowed time now.

I wouldn't feel comfortable in a mixed sex/open breastfeeding support group tbh, so can see whaere you are coming from.

Also female only would not mean excluding transmen as implied, as transmen are female people.

I cannot see that many transmen would be breastfeeding though, but on the offchance they are, of course they are welcome!

My only experience of this would be the breastfeeding support group I was in when attempting to relactate after bad advice from hospital made me NOT BF when I really wanted to. It was not single sex by rule, but it was only women, no men had joined (maybe because, theres no reason for men to). A man turned up to one session..minus breastfeeding partner oddly enough, and that whole session then revolved around him. We even had to listen to whingeing about how his partner BFing was making her more tired and he wasn't getting much sex even though her 'stitches had healed' Hence, me totally understanding why you would want female only.

Vulva the knobber who turned up to your support group reminds me of why entitled men should NEVER get their own way and muscle in to female spaces. What an absolute arse!!!

@user643899

Oh great. A new comment:

"people often forget we have 300,000 inrersex people in the UK..."

You could outwoke them with the (true) fact that intersex people and organisations have consistently asked to be left out of discussions like this.

If any intersex women are breastfeeding, then presumably they'd be welcome. If not, then not.

There are some well known large online bf groups that do encourage male partners to join.

@CooperLooper

I'm due my first baby in a week or two and thought I'd check to see whether this related to one of the breastfeeding groups I'm in. It does, I've seen the poll, and I've now left the group.

I'm not transphobic in any way, people can identify however the hell they want, FTM trans people can lactate and need support too, but I fundamentally disagree that a (currently) female safe-space bf group should open up to males unless 100% of the participants agree. The vote on the poll was currently 70:30 (ish) in favour of males being allowed in but for me I'm not comfortable with them ignoring the needs of that 30%.

I wouldn't even feel comfortable with male partners being in there, never mind MTF trans people who can't even produce milk without artificially stimulating it with chemicals. Women post pictures of videos of their latch, of blebs, pictures of their babies breastfeeding - really personal things. Unless every single woman in the group agrees to allowing males it should be a hard no.

Interesting to hear from someone who was in the group.

I shan't be posting in the group anymore but I'm remaining in it to see how it pans out.

What keeps going round in my head is the fact they have already put men above women. Admins had to step down and they are still contemplating allowing men. I'm disgusted and getting more frustrated.

@VulvaPerson

I would leave, and find a female only group. This one is clearly determined to go down the mixed sex group, and you have been marked as a 'problem' if your posts were deleted and are probably on borrowed time now.

I wouldn't feel comfortable in a mixed sex/open breastfeeding support group tbh, so can see whaere you are coming from.

I'm struggling to find a female-only group. Perhaps it needs to be set up. Will it eventually lead to reports for being discriminatory?

There's no going back for this group. Regardless of if they change the criteria, they have already chosen their side.

[quote MKCH]@user643899
OP I'm also in the same Facebook group and I think the way they've gone about it is ridiculous - for a start asking whether people would be comfortable with it and then any opinions that were against the idea got immediately pounced upon and then comments turned off.

I actually don't know how I feel about it - apart from the term 'chest feeding' sends me into a mild rage (if you're so secure in your gender that you KNOW you're a man when you were born a woman, why are you then going on to have babies and breastfeed and then getting pissy with people saying you have breasts... having a baby and breastfeeding are things that a woman can do, not a man). I'm not necessarily against transmen joining if it means they get support for breastfeeding which is hard work at the best of times, and I'm fully aware that Facebook is Facebook and if I post a video of my nip anyone might see it.

But it's descended into a huge slanging match and the members are being arseholes. I'm nearly at the end of my breastfeeding and I'm very tempted to leave the group even though it's been a huge source of comfort for me for the past year and I've directed many friends to it.[/quote]
Sorry to hear you're facing the same situation. I'm long into my bf journey too, so leaving it wouldn't be as detrimental as it would have been 2 years ago.

I'm baffled as to why opinions were sought only to be deleted. Did you notice they said no arguing and then any anti posts were jumped on?

They've now deleted the poll and have changed it to, "allow all men."
The majority are still steering towards allow.

I've just seen an admin answer a question (I wondered if dads can join this group?)
Just to add to what has been said, we do welcome men/ dads if they are the ones breastfeeding

*The problem with including transmen in groups like these (ones that specifically discuss female biological function) is the inevitable language policing that comes with it (sometimes by wokish women on behalf of transmen, who haven’t actually even requested it themselves).

Women are eventually banned from using words like ‘mother’ ‘breastfeeding’ and starting posts with salutations such as ‘Hey ladies!’

It all becomes a depressing and alienating purity spiral and most importantly of all, it gets in the way of the groups main aim, supporting as many women to achieve their breastfeeding aims as possible.*

This exactly. After a trans man joined my local breastfeeding support group, the focus pretty soon shifted from discussing breastfeeding issues to debating terms and policing tone. Threads would be instantly derailed for "non-inclusive" language and women would stop posting because they were afraid they would not get the new terminology right. Said trans man would post selfies and women would fall all over themselves to validate them in their manly manliness.

Obvious bold fail.

I’m sorry that happened to your group.
I had a terrible time breastfeeding my second (posterior tongue tie and milk allergy) and if I hadn’t been able to access consistent, robust, woman-centred support I could easily have ended up isolated and depressed.

It’s bad enough being anxious about giving an opinion for fear of being cancelled for alleged tervism, I can’t imagine how difficult it is to be anxious to ask for help.

A mix of groups with clearly defined memberships is presumably the answer, dads can go in the same ones as transmen.

I’m a long way past my peer supporter days but there must be people out there who can facilitate a woman only group!

Perhaps it needs to be set up. Will it eventually lead to reports for being discriminatory?

Unfortunately given the current climate, yes it would be relentlessly attacked. I have a feeling this is why so many current groups are 'falling' tbh, as people who set up the groups clearly know its better for them to be a female only space in the first place..otherwise they would have made a mixed sex group (which I have no issue with, but its a different thing in my mind, but hat could be clouded by my own experiences)

You couldn't even say it was for 'born female people', as much as wokey language annoys me, as it would be attacked even more with that wording. Its shit. I do think female only stuff will have to go underground, like so many (actual) lesbian groups and such have had to.

I'm baffled as to why opinions were sought only to be deleted. Did you notice they said no arguing and then any anti posts were jumped on?

Because the decision was made before the post. My conspiracy side says they wanted the people who would;t like it to speak out, so they could weed the undesirables from the crop before the men arrived But again, thats just my cynical side. Its depressing as fuck, whats happening to all womens spaces, no matter what they are. Like, even reddit groups for illnesses that ONLY FEMALE PEOPLE GET are colonised by males, who I have see whinging that the females suffering from the illnesses should not moan as at least they 'can have this female experience'. Its vile.

Like, even reddit groups for illnesses that ONLY FEMALE PEOPLE GET are colonised by males

Just to add for information for anyone interested, this has also happened on Facebook support groups where the group has been colonised or if resisted, the group has been destroyed. It is viewed that it is better that women, even with life destroying or life limiting illness, go without support or their contact with friends than fail to bow to this political agenda, and these supports for female people who were bothering no one have been selfishly and wantonly destroyed.

It is truly revolting. Which is why I become so very angry when this agenda dares to try using the word 'kind'.

I've just seen an admin answer a question (I wondered if dads can join this group?) - Just to add to what has been said, we do welcome men/ dads if they are the ones breastfeeding

See, I interpret that as a very GC answer... interesting.

The problem with including transmen in groups like these (ones that specifically discuss female biological function) is the inevitable language policing that comes with it (sometimes by wokish women on behalf of transmen, who haven’t actually even requested it themselves).

Hmm yes I didn't think of this part.

You would think, that if transmen were needing beastfeeding (chestfeeding, whatever) support, a group setup for them and people like them would be best anyway. Then people would already not use 'woman centric language' and potentially upset them. Plus I imagine its a very different practise when you are juggling hormones and such, along with other issues transmen may face that other women do not.

I don't think its generally transmen who care about words such as mother being used though. Maybe the odd few might find it 'triggering' but honestly, if you go through a pregnancy and give birth, its a bit weird to whinge that people identify you as female? IDK, always seems odd. I cannot see that even if many transmen did find stuff triggering, that they would make such a fuss about it either..it always seems to be wokey woke people who are 'tras allies' who kick off about people saying women instead of uterus havers or whatever. Reminds me in a way of those who will insist that Muslim people should not have to hear the word xmas or see anything to do with xmas...while yes its used by the DM as a way to get people to attack Muslims, there ARE a lot of non-Muslim people who will language police others on behalf of the Muslim people, meanwhile, the Muslim people I know are quietly bemused by the idea they will collapse in a heap if they see someone putting up a xmas tree, but speaking up to those who are policing others on their behalf..often results in them being attacked also! TBF the only transmen I know are 'non transitioning' as such, one is on testosterone but most are just what we would have called 'tomboys' or similar a few years back, but I have yet to come across one who thinks its a bad thing to name women as women, and female problems as female problems! They do not even kick off about personal pronouns, the only people I have ever seen kicking off about pronouns are male trans people. And allies.

Its all such a fucking mess. And I don't know all the answers. But I will never agree with whats currently going on with womens groups. I find it pathetic, selfish, vile and any other negative word you can think of really. Women need their spaces. They are not just pawns in some fucked up oppression top trumps game. They have their own needs and wants, seperate to those of men. Maybe seperate to those of other women too, and thats OK.

Apologies for my awful typos. Its always the same when I use the upstairs laptop..I cannot get into the habit of proofreading before posting as my typing is generally pretty much 100% accurate, but some keys are going on here

I wonder if a group described as ‘for breastfeeding mothers in the postpartum period’ with a rule saying members could remain for the entirety of their breastfeeding journey would get round the woke bullies?

That would rule out male trans ‘mothers‘ because they aren’t post partum and female trans and NB who don’t call themselves ‘mothers’.

I don't think any language gymnastics would work with them tbh. Its the very fact that women are trying to gather without the presense of men that is the issue I think really, not the name of the group.,

Anyone with the equipment to breastfeed should be good to join. Doesn’t matter how they label themselves. Anyone who wants to join and is having problems breastfeeding - but has the equipment also good to join.

Someone who can’t ever be able to breastfeed, hasn’t got the necessary equipment or is taking medication to artificially create liquid in order to do this - should be on another group surely?

Why are people bending over backwards to miss the whole point of groups and societies and focus on people who would never have been given the time of day a couple of years ago? It’s wasting valuable time and energy and the whole flipping point. So scared of looking bad eh?