Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

So there should be no trans remembrance?

I would think of it more the other way round. The only days of remembrance that spring to mind are 11th November to remember our war dead, and the Holocaust day.

I would be more inclined to ask why a particular group need a day of remembrance when as far as I am aware they haven't actually been persecuted. Nothing like the huge numbers who died in war, or the Nazi death camps, or as a result of the horrors of the slave trade.

Or have a day of remembrance that is focused on those who do face an elevated risk of being murdered: male people of colour who work as sex workers and who identify as trans.

In helping to shine on light on this, it would be helpful to name the people who are carrying out the terrible harm to this community.

@nauticant

Yes, as I asked above, why is it a positive thing to send a message to trans people in the UK that they're at terrible risk of being murdered when this isn't true and the numbers suggest that they're a relatively safe demographic?

Its along the same line as telling trans people that they are almost inevitably going to attempt suicide at one point, almost tellng them they are unusual and not like other trans people if they don't. When there is no proof this is true, and suicide contagion is a very real phenomenom so its kind of creating a self fulfilling prophecy, along with scaring the shit out of people for no reason

As mentioned upthread, it was also Children's Day and 34 children were murdered in Scotland this year.
According to the NSPCC, an average of 62 children died each year in the UK over the past five years (learning.nspcc.org.uk/research-resources/statistics-briefings/child-deaths-abuse-neglect).

It would be more relevant to acknowledge them and express a determination to do something about it, rather than appropriating the experiences of trans people abroad in order to scare British trans people half to death.

What is it with the need to make trans people more afraid than the reality around them justifies?

as far as I am aware they haven't actually been persecuted. Nothing like the huge numbers who died in war, or the Nazi death camps, or as a result of the horrors of the slave trade

How many is too many, in your eyes then?
Just because it's "not as many lives as these", does that mean they shouldn't be remembered?
Why minimise?

I don’t think it is an effort to scare - more to create a narrative that demands protection and additional, no disagreements.

When I was little I was once at the dentist and he was going to give me a filling (own fault, loved toffee). For some reason I thought that if I pretended to be scared and cry he’d ‘let me off’ and not give me the filling. It didn’t work and of course it would have only been worse for me (my teeth and my character) if he had.

I would have thought that winning hearts and minds should be a goal yes, if not the main one, if you really want to protect women's rights. Because ultimately that's how you'll get political parties to change tack, or people to vote with you.

Thanks for answering and I'm glad you stuck around. You still sound as if you think we're some kind of movement with a common goal. I don't see us like that. I'm sure there are posters who are active when they're not on here but as far as I'm concerned, this board is a discussion forum, nothing more and nothing less. This is what women talking sound like.

Nor do I agree with the idea that we'd win more support if only we were nicer. Look at WPUK - I've never seen them say or do anything that wasn't thoughtful and respectful but they still get called a hate group.

@MichelleofzeResistance

it makes me question all your other arguments too.

Good. Question it. Question everything. Read everything you can from every angle, make your own mind up and have your own thought out position on it rather than outsource your thinking to hopes that someone on MN will 'bring you round to their way of thinking'.

Fgs.

Indeed. Sapare aude!

Nor do I agree with the idea that we'd win more support if only we were nicer.

Weirdly, using extremely threatening language in tweets and putting up pictures of themselves brandishing baseball bats doesn't seem to harm the trans rights cause.

Yet women speaking plainly appears to be a problem for some.

I have no idea why this is.

I don’t think it is an effort to scare - more to create a narrative that demands protection and additional, no disagreements.

It's emotional manipulation. The murder of anyone is horrific, I don't think anyone would disagree. I'm uncomfortable about the lies though, and the reasons for them.

I've seen plenty of times in discussions where women are talking about our need for our own spaces, we get the 'but trans people are being murdered at frightening rates' thrown in our faces. Like these non existent murders are the fault of women.

It's a tactic to shame us into silence. Anyone who identifies as a woman needs in on women's spaces to keep them 'safe'. We say no, then we're condoning murder and actually want them to die. We're responsible for mass murder.

Being as trans people are one of the safest groups in the UK, I can only imagine that having a remembrance day here is some kind of attempt to fool people into thinking that they really are being killed left, right and centre, in numbers high enough to warrant a day of remembrance.

Being as trans people are one of the safest groups in the UK

Genuine question, but how do you come to that conclusion?
Would be interesting to see the stats/source for that claim?

Thanks for replying too Floisme. I suppose I do see this board a bit like that. There are lots of references to companies "going over to the dark side", "drinking the kool aid" etc. There seems to be a sort of accepted party line. I've lurked on quite a few threads but the impatience shown to people who disagree is kind of off-putting and imo not conducive to real debate. So thank you for being patient with me!

If the measure* is the rate at which trans people are murdered compared to the population in general, this supports the statement:

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

• and since the discussion is about a day of remembrance, that would seem to be a reasonable measure

nauticant

I think it is a self propagated need, to make the general public think they are more at risk than other groups - women for instance - so that the general public are more likely to feel sorry for them, give them a free pass, rustle up the falsified suicide figures, bung in the US/Brazil murder rates of trans sex workers for good measure.
Then the politicians, who in my opinion, no longer research anything thoroughly, simply jump on a populist, minority bandwagon before thinking things through. They want to be "down and groovy" (blimey, what a seventies phrase with the young, woke crowd, at the expense of making themselves look ridiculous in front of the majority.
Keir has gone down the route of Lisa Nandy, Angela Rayner RBL et al. Put any of them on GMB and let Piers Morgan question them and you would be left with flustered, empty bladders, devoid of cohesive arguments.
I should say that it is only the last couple of years I have started agreeing with PM on a number of subjects - I am amazed.

I think we should make sure we have in our diaries International Pronouns day, international non-binary people’s day, international transgender day of visibility, non binary awareness week. Trans parent day, transgender awareness week. There is a list here. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LGBT_awareness_periods

Some like IDAHTB cover more than one group, but transgender and NB people seem well represented...

I suppose I do see this board a bit like that. There are lots of references to companies "going over to the dark side", "drinking the kool aid" etc.

Also Has Fallen

@Quaagars

I suppose I do see this board a bit like that. There are lots of references to companies "going over to the dark side", "drinking the kool aid" etc.

Also Has Fallen

I dislike that too Quaagars. Too cliquey.

why a particular group need a day of remembrance when as far as I am aware they haven't actually been persecuted.

I do think that trans people still face discrimination pretty much everywhere. Misogyny is everywhere and Men especially tend to be hostile towards anyone who is GNC presenting.

So Why are trans people not murdered at a higher rate in the UK? Primarily it’s because most trans people in the UK are while, natal males over the age of 30. So they are not at risk for all of those reasons. Teens are also at very low risk, in general, especially natal female teens from affluent background which seem to make up a majority of trans identifying kids.

trans sex workers are at very high risk like any Sex worker and possibly higher due to the homophobia among some of their clients.

In any case, trans people do face disgust and policing of their gender expression even if they are not literally murdered more.

@Quaagars

as far as I am aware they haven't actually been persecuted. Nothing like the huge numbers who died in war, or the Nazi death camps, or as a result of the horrors of the slave trade

How many is too many, in your eyes then?
Just because it's "not as many lives as these", does that mean they shouldn't be remembered?
Why minimise?

Surely more than 0 in the last 2 years here?

We've had 'Trans Awareness Week' and now exhorted to mark 'Trans Remembrance Day' - it feels to me like an advertising campaign to promote a brand.

@Quaagars

I suppose I do see this board a bit like that. There are lots of references to companies "going over to the dark side", "drinking the kool aid" etc.

Also Has Fallen

I must say that is the feeling one gets when hearing about another company or organisation that genuinely seems to lose the power of rational thought in the thrall of trans rights. Who would ever have thought that Amnesty International would be signing a letter calling for the basic human rights if a group of people (mainly women) to be removed? What has happened to their rational thought??

I was accused of being transphobic for wondering (aloud) about the safety issues caused by allowing any make to self identify into women’s spaces.

What advice do I give my teenage daughter when she walks into the public toilets and there is a man in there? Does she exit asap because he may well be a predator or is it all fine because it is ‘only a transwoman going about their toileting business’?? How does she tell?

We've had 'Trans Awareness Week' and now exhorted to mark 'Trans Remembrance Day'

So? As in, surely they're two totally different things?
I think Trans Awareness Week is to make trans people more "visible", raise awareness on what it's like to be trans (aware this is going to get eye rolls and picked to pieces as I type it, but meh, anyways...)
(also happy to be corrected by anyone who is trans if that's not an accurate description)
Whereas a remembrance day is just that. A day to remember those who have been killed.
Why shouldn't there be both?
And being trans isn't a brand

@Floisme

He's still keeping his cards close to his chest, as he always does. It was Trans Day of Remembrance and I can see nothing there to disagree with.

What I think is more interesting is that he could easily have gone further and added, 'TWAW / TMAM' but he chose not to.

Yes, I was half expecting that addition too. Leaving TWAW/TMAM out speaks volumes.

Head in hands at comparing trans day of remembrance to black lives matter. Were you awake during BLM? The lists of names of young black men that barely scratched the surface of those killed pass you by? The reason no names were named yesterday is because it would give away that trans people are not being killed here. A day of remembrance without anyone being remembered. A total nonsense.

And being trans isn't a brand

I said it feels to me - that's how it feels to me on the receiving end of these campaigns, that I'm being pushed to focus on Trans issues so often and yet, as many pp have observed, there are numerous other more serious issues which struggle to get media attention.