Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

[Quaagars]

Were you awake during BLM? The lists of names of young black men that barely scratched the surface of those killed pass you by?

Yes, I was awake, and yes, it's tragic the amount of lives taken, didn't pass me by at all.

The reason no names were named yesterday is because it would give away that trans people are not being killed here.

No trans people are being killed? Really? Or are we back to if its not in the UK then it doesn't count again?
Or is it they'd have got killed anyway and nothing to do with being trans?
Or something else?
Genuinely at a loss, I can't get into this mindset

[Floisme]

You're welcome longest and I mean it when I say I hope you stick around. I guess a lot of / most of us are gender critical but beyond that, I would say there's less agreement on here than you might think - as this thread illustrates. Like I say, we're not a movement, we've no leader, no manifesto - we're just (mostly) women talking.

[napody]

Obviously not they don't count if not in the UK. Clearly. Although whether or not they were killed FOR being trans is unclear.

But if they named names it would make it clear it's not happening in the UK. The choice not to do that is deliberate and is to give the impression that trans people are at increased risk here, when that is not what the data shows.

[longestlurkerever]

Well thank you. I will probably continue to drop in from time to time. I have lots of thoughts about trans rights, women's rights, gender etc etc. They aren't as fully formed as many on here. I think it's still a fluid area with room for debate and disagreement and fostering understanding. I really can't see that polarisation helps move things forward. It isn't really about wanting everyone to be nice. Just wanting people not to cross a line really. Or at least wanting to call it out when I think a line has been crossed, even if others may disagree.

[Quaagars]

It isn't really about wanting everyone to be nice. Just wanting people not to cross a line really. Or at least wanting to call it out when I think a line has been crossed, even if others may disagree

Same

[BlackWaveComing]

Always interesting to me that it's only GC women being policed for their 'line crossing'. Very retro.

[LastTrainEast]

@longestlurkerever

I stand by my comments. I think of you're trying to bring people round to your way of thinking you're going about it completely the wrong way. I am sympathetic to your arguments, I've defended JK Rowling against friends who thought she was totally wrong for expressing a view, but I'm uncomfortable with the "it's us or them" rhetoric that goes on and the idea that any support for equal rights for trans people must be the result of some faceless cabal with foots on necks. It's grim and it makes me question all your other arguments too.

Trans people already have equal rights. (feel free to name a right they don't have that others do) The trans-activists want women's rights removed and too many people are saying "do you know what. They have a point. Why should women have rights?"

[Tanith]

"No trans people are being killed? Really? Or are we back to if its not in the UK then it doesn't count again?"

Yesterday, Jan Morris died. I'd have expected this to have been acknowledged far more than it was. I only realised because a journalist I follow tweeted about it.
Pages and pages of "remembering our murdered trans siblings" and hate towards Rosie Duffield. Jan? Barely a mention.

[Impatiens]

What is the line that's being crossed?

[ErrolTheDragon]

The 'not in the U.K.' is somewhat relevant in the context of this thread - U.K. senior politicians talking about 'fights' without being clear what they mean. What from the POV of a U.K. politician are they fighting for exactly at this point, or who are they fighting against?

[LastTrainEast]

As for TWAW If a Welshman (for example) were to tell me he is actually a 50 ft crocodile I will not say that he is. That doesn't mean that I don't think welsh people should have rights. It wouldn't detract from his human rights at all.

[napody]

@Tanith

"No trans people are being killed? Really? Or are we back to if its not in the UK then it doesn't count again?"

Yesterday, Jan Morris died. I'd have expected this to have been acknowledged far more than it was. I only realised because a journalist I follow tweeted about it.
Pages and pages of "remembering our murdered trans siblings" and hate towards Rosie Duffield. Jan? Barely a mention.

Full page in the Guardian today.

[longestlurkerever]

The line between defending women's rights and being anti trans. I really don't find it persuasive when people point to poor behaviour on "the other side". There are many trans people in this country who do not identify with any disrespect of women and I don't like battle lines being drawn. This is kind of what I mean. You'd have thought you'd want to recruit people like me, who are interested in your pov, but instead you are pushing me away by ridiculing me when I say there are lines i don't want to align myself to. It doesn't make sense to me. It makes it feel like you're more interested in the battle than the cause, and I float away, unconverted.

[Quaagars]

Always interesting to me that it's only GC women being policed for their 'line crossing'.

How would people even know on here.
It's going by words and opinions surely, not on what's between your legs

[Impatiens]

You'd have thought you'd want to recruit people like me, who are interested in your pov, but instead you are pushing me away by ridiculing me when I say there are lines i don't want to align myself to.

But what do you mean by 'recruit'? It's been pointed out several times that there's no 'movement' here, no faction that we're all signed up to so what are you being 'recruited' to?

And 'people like me' as well. I don't know anything about you, other than your posts on this thread, so even if there was a faction how would I know you're 'suitable' for recruitment?

Your tone is irritating, this sort of sorrowful, 'oh dear, if only you'd be nicer people would like you more' is really patronising.

Women have been told, over and over again, that the very mention of women's rights is 'transphobic'. That the very mention of the word Women is 'transphobic' fgs! THAT particular line was crossed years ago but doesn't seem to resonate with you at all. I find that really perplexing.

[BlackWaveComing]

@Quaagars

Always interesting to me that it's only GC women being policed for their 'line crossing'.

How would people even know on here.
It's going by words and opinions surely, not on what's between your legs

What a weird response.
It's a feminism and women's rights forum - 99% of posters are female. Why would you insinuate they're not?

[Quaagars]

The 'not in the U.K.' is somewhat relevant in the context of this thread - U.K. senior politicians talking about 'fights' without being clear what they mean. What from the POV of a U.K. politician are they fighting for exactly at this point, or who are they fighting against?

I don't know, but maybe human rights?
Right to live your life as yourself instead of feeling you have to hide?
I like the fact that even though I'm white, c*s, straight, others who aren't can feel they can be themselves too.
Maybe not so much with being trans lately by the looks of things, still got a way to go there before that's ever accepted by some

[longestlurkerever]

It's also been pointed out that that isn't how it seems to "outsiders". Carry on with your "debates" then, where anyone who thinks you're going too far is irritating and sorrowful and patronising, but you are talking to an echo chamber.

[Impatiens]

'It's going by words and opinions surely, not on what's between your legs

That sort of comment seems so resonant of TAs

[Quaagars]

It's a feminism and women's rights forum - 99% of posters are female. Why would you insinuate they're not?

Flawed in so many ways - you assume that 99% of posters are automatically female (how would you even know?!)
Not a gotcha, or meant to be scary, doesn't mean I aren't female (I am!) but it's the internet. Anyone can post.
Basic internet safety.
All I meant was people are responding to views on here expressed, nothing to do with whether the poster is male or female.
Also, you assume that all women think the same.
Which they don't.
Just like men, we have minds of our own.

[nauticant]

I don't know, but maybe human rights?
Right to live your life as yourself instead of feeling you have to hide?

But these aren't about there being a trans day of remembrance which is pretty much what this discussion is about.

This "don't look here, look over there" style of posting is very transparent.

[Gncq]

The people with dicks in between their legs are known for telling GC women to "choke on my dick" so that's how the "big debate" usually gets dragged into what's between people's legs or not.

GC women are allowed to be sick of it and point it out.

I've never seen any threat of violence or sexual assault being made by a GC women but have seen plenty made by TRA.

[Impatiens]

It's also been pointed out that that isn't how it seems to "outsiders". Carry on with your "debates" then, where anyone who thinks you're going too far is irritating and sorrowful and patronising, but you are talking to an echo chamber.

You haven't explained how you think people are 'going too far' and no, it isn't 'anyone' who's irritating and patronising, it's specifically you at this moment.

I'm an 'outsider' - I've hardly set foot on MN for months, but I understand the issues here and the reasons for the strength of feeling while it seems that you don't.

[DidoLamenting]

@Tanith

"No trans people are being killed? Really? Or are we back to if its not in the UK then it doesn't count again?"

Yesterday, Jan Morris died. I'd have expected this to have been acknowledged far more than it was. I only realised because a journalist I follow tweeted about it.
Pages and pages of "remembering our murdered trans siblings" and hate towards Rosie Duffield. Jan? Barely a mention.

There's a long obituary in The Times.

Btw if anyone on here is JMS13 in the comments on The Times' obituary you are not going to win anyone over to the "gender critical" side.

[BlackWaveComing]

@longestlurkerever

The line between defending women's rights and being anti trans. I really don't find it persuasive when people point to poor behaviour on "the other side". There are many trans people in this country who do not identify with any disrespect of women and I don't like battle lines being drawn. This is kind of what I mean. You'd have thought you'd want to recruit people like me, who are interested in your pov, but instead you are pushing me away by ridiculing me when I say there are lines i don't want to align myself to. It doesn't make sense to me. It makes it feel like you're more interested in the battle than the cause, and I float away, unconverted.

As judged by you, neutral arbiter?!

Look, you're either for women's rights - the rights of natal females - or you're not. That's up to you. Your choice. Don't fob off responsibility for a choice to instead identify with mens rights onto us and our supposed 'line crossing''.

Take responsibility for your own choices about who you prioritise and what set of stats you choose to believe - don't insist that your refusal to support females is because said females didn't do the labour of convincing you in a way you like.

Truth is truth, regardless of whether it's been prettified or not. Have the courage of your convictions.