Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

[OldCrone]

Do you feel you have a gender out of interest?

No. I don't believe people 'have' a gender. Gender is the set of social and cultural expectations which are imposed on people because of their sex. So to say someone 'has' a gender just sounds wrong to me, because it's seems to me to be a grammatically incorrect use of language.

As a thought experiment it you got rid of everything that was obviously pertaining to the female sex such as certain items of clothing if someone went through your possessions would they be able to make a good guess what your gender was? Do you own any dresses, perfume, things like that?

I don't have a gender. Do you mean would they be able to guess my sex? Probably. Most of the time I wear t-shirts and jeans from the men's department, but many of my other clothes are 'women's' clothes, because I'm woman shaped (men's clothes tend to be too wide on the shoulders and too small on the hips). I don't like perfume (never have) and I haven't owned any make up for about 40 years.

Does that answer your question? Where are you going with this?

[Quaagars]

I say seemingly as it's never challenged or asked why keep on using it when others say why it is offensive if coming from the "other side."

[jj1968]

@Butterer

I sometimes wear dresses, as do many men.
If you audited me for the last week's wardrobe, I've been wearing jeans, boxers and a hoodie. I don't wear perfume, I sometimes wear men's scents (I think? The bloke marketed stuff anyway).

I'd guess the Tampax in my rucksack (I dont own a handbag) would give my sex away, but not my gender...

How often do you see a man in a dress walking down the High Street?

I'm not having a go personally but gender is ubiquitous, it is everywhere and ingrained in us, and also done to use whether we like it or not. If we are to be able to interrogate it, and eventually abolish it when I think we have to understand its nature, both within society and ourselves. I worry that a lot of the talk of being gender free etc from people who actually appear to be pretty gender conforming is obscuring that.

(I think gender identity, as in our internal sense of self, and gender overall as a system of social control are not the same thing by the way. Gender identity is part of gender for a lot of people but I recognise a lot of people do not have an innate sense of their gender or even their sex. That doesn't necesarily mean they can opt out of gender though)

[StrippedFridge]

Why is it so bad to acknowledge that transwomen are males who identify as women, in circumstances where sex matters? Women and transwomen or women and transmen covers it quite nicely depending on what's being discussed.

[Quaagars]

Jj I have fought against gender being forced upon me my whole life. If you call me cis I find it deeply offensive even if you think you meant nothing offensive. Given how offensive it is to many women surely you'd be best off avoiding it. Why do you keep using it knowing it is offensive to many?

I also don't get why, seeing as you find the c word so offensive, and say"why keep using it?" but seemingly have no problem calling trans women non women, or "words referring to their biological sex" instead, knowing it's offensive?
It seems so hypocritical.

[midgebabe]

But...transwomen are not actually women are they? Not if the word woman means what most people think it means. What do you think woman means? Perhaps if I understood that I would understand better?

[Quaagars]

I really think you should take this up with trans men because it's got nothing to do with trans women

Yes, not really sure what any of it has to do with trans women actually, if it's to do with trans inclusive language for trans men?
Yet trans women keep getting dragged back into it.

[jj1968]

@StrippedFridge

Jj I have fought against gender being forced upon me my whole life. If you call me cis I find it deeply offensive even if you think you meant nothing offensive. Given how offensive it is to many women surely you'd be best off avoiding it. Why do you keep using it knowing it is offensive to many? Would you stop so as to avoid causing offence?

I haven't used it here and I wouldn't use it to describe an individual. And the objections to non trans women shows whatever I say will be deemed offensive by some unless I use language which implies trans women are not women.

[yourhairiswinterfire]

I really think you should take this up with trans men because it's got nothing to do with trans women.

Kind of hard to when you're threatened with rape when you try. And not by transmen.

[StrippedFridge]

Jj I have fought against gender being forced upon me my whole life. If you call me cis I find it deeply offensive even if you think you meant nothing offensive. Given how offensive it is to many women surely you'd be best off avoiding it. Why do you keep using it knowing it is offensive to many? Would you stop so as to avoid causing offence?

[AnyOldPrion]

You mean like straight for example?

Straight means heterosexual. It doesn’t mean “not gay”.

[midgebabe]

Ok humour me, what do you mean by "identify as gender fluid"

I will take identify as ...as meaning that your gender fluid thing is very important to you

But what's gender fluid ?

[Mummyoflittledragon]

jj Is there any reason why can’t you use the term natal or born to indicate people are not trans?

[jj1968]

@OldCrone

I do think it's useful to have a word which means specifically does not identify as transgender

Do you also need a term for people who don't belong to every other minority group of people which you force on the majority regardless of their preference?

You mean like straight for example? Yes there are words for that, and yes some people object to them but I don't lose much sleep about it.

[jj1968]

@Datun

I don't really care what you call me, and no, I'm gender fluid,

Ah, so sometimes identifies as a man, and sometimes a woman. But rarely, I suspect as fish or clackerbag.

Please don't make assumptions about me. I identify as gender fluid.

[Pahrump]

delurks

clackerbag

Arf!

^relurks*

[OldCrone]

I do think it's useful to have a word which means specifically does not identify as transgender

Do you also need a term for people who don't belong to every other minority group of people which you force on the majority regardless of their preference?

[jj1968]

@OldCrone

If I do use the term cis outside of these boards I use it to simply mean does not identify as transgender/non binary and nothing else

But what about people who don't identify as trans/non binary but don't identify as 'cis' either?

I don't have a gender identity. I am not 'cis'.

Do you feel you have a gender out of interest?

As a thought experiment it you got rid of everything that was obviously pertaining to the female sex such as certain items of clothing if someone went through your possessions would they be able to make a good guess what your gender was? Do you own any dresses, perfume, things like that?

[Datun]

... clackerbag owner. .