Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

I am sympathetic to your arguments

Who is this directed at? Me? Or are you one of those who think this board is a political party with leaders and specific policies to promote and defend.

it makes me question all your other arguments too.

Good. Question it. Question everything. Read everything you can from every angle, make your own mind up and have your own thought out position on it rather than outsource your thinking to hopes that someone on MN will 'bring you round to their way of thinking'.

Fgs.

He should support trans people, most people do. It's the mantra he's parroting I have a problem with. Trans people have the same rights as the rest of us, and that's why it's ridiculous seeing a political party leader using the slogan 'trans rights are human rights'. It's implying they don't.

The slogan is a sly tactic to stop people asking questions, because if we do we're ''literally attacking trans peoples human rights'' and ''literally obviously want them all to die''.

So when Kier says 'your fight is our fight', bearing in mind trans people have the same rights as every other human being in this country, what he's actually saying is he's open to allowing males to trample all over everything women have for ourselves, that we had to fight long and hard for. Our sports, our spaces away from males, women only job positions, etc.

That's not supporting trans rights, that's favouring a group because they shout loudest and handing them privileges that will be detrimental to women.

@MichelleofzeResistance

it makes me question all your other arguments too.

Good. Question it. Question everything. Read everything you can from every angle, make your own mind up and have your own thought out position on it rather than outsource your thinking to hopes that someone on MN will 'bring you round to their way of thinking'.

Fgs.

Yes, this!

He's a coward and won't stand up for women. I emailed him during the leadership campaign about women's rights (inc males in female prisons, sports, hospital wards etc) and the copy paste response from his team didn't even mention women. They said "trans and non-binary people are discriminated against" and kier would work to better protect them in law etc. No idea how you protect that which you cannot solidly define, or what legal rights they are missing, though.

I don’t see how this is not completely fine

Trans rights are human rights because trans people are humans

This still matters in much of the world. The Uk is extremely unusual in legal protections for trans people from direct discrimination.

Let’s continue to point out that no human has the right for others to be made to treat a person as if they have a protected characteristic they do not have.

With male violence it is ‘us or them’
Sad fact of biology is the majority of men can physically overpower a woman.

That’s why we have single sex spaces to protect women and girls.

Our biology means we have bodies that react in unpredictable and bloody ways. Periods miscarriages. Leaking breasts. This happens to most women and girls including girls just growing up and dealing with changing bodies and periods. That’s why we have single sex loos because if we don’t as happens in poorer countries girls miss school or work because they have no way of dealing with biology.

So unless you would be happy to be banged up in a prison cell with a disturbed male bodied sex offender complete with functioning penis, or share a women’s refuge bedroom, ir hospital ward ,or have your daughter be forced to strip naked in front of boys in changing rooms then it us or them . We would happily work for third mixed sex spaces which would also help families or specific health provision but that is not good enough for those biological males who want to access our spaces. Not of all will be motivated by dysphoria

I do question and seek to learn. Hence hanging out on this thread even though it's pretty hostile imo. But I find the tone of some of the rhetoric unpleasant. Yes there may be protections in law. You could say the same about most marginalised groups. There's quite a distance between protections in law and the end of discrimination. I wasn't, in any case, questioning anyone's view that "remembrance day" is an odd moniker, or that "fight" is an odd choice of term. But the thread started with a pretty extreme opening gambit and is littered with examples of combative "us/them" language and I said that this is a good example of why this board is often charged with being "anti trans", which I ultimately think is damaging to your cause.

Saying trans right are human rights is no more picking a side than saying blue is a colour means that you hate bananas. It's just an anodyne statement.

I'm not sure why you're positioning yourself as a lone dissenter voice in a sea of hostility. Plenty of posters have disagreed with the op - I was one of them.

And if you're seriously suggesting we're in this mess because we've been 'unpleasant' then I disagree pretty vehemently with you too.
No hostility, no drama, just disagreement.

But I find the tone of some of the rhetoric unpleasant.

How do you find the tone of some of the rhetoric on twitter etc, as applied to women?

Soz cross post.

Trans rights are human rights is such a pointless phrase really, noone denies this. Trans people should absolutely have human rights, and they do. Its womens rights that should be kept for women only. Else womens rights do not exist.

I wasn't seriously suggesting that Floisme, I don't know how you got that impression. I wasn't trying to paint myself as a lone voice either, I just was trying to speak for myself and not on behalf of other people. I do, though, find this whole approach of being challenged for not being angry enough exhausting, which is the only and limited point I was trying to make. This board is frequently confrontational and it puts me off coming on and engaging with the debate. I don't think I'm alone and I don't think it's a way to win hearts and minds. I do not follow Twitter as a rule, I'm sure I'd find the rhetoric there just as if not more unpleasant. I'll slope off now because frankly this is not fun. I wish you all well.

FWR isn't primarily about having fun (except in the pub. Or if an old-style MRA shows up).

Tbh I think you're doing that tedious thing of classifying assertive women as being 'angry'. Feel free to disagree.

I agree with you there. It's not fun, I'd much rather be on Style and Beauty talking about clothes but here we are.

Do you think winning hearts and minds is our aim? I don't think it is. We're not WPUK, we're a discussion board, and we argue and sometimes get annoyed with each other and we thrash things out. It's not like we're issuing statements on behalf of Mumsnet.

It's been pointed out on that thread repeatedly that 0 trans people were murdered on the Uk last year. The number of women was 241. Yet we have trans remembrance

Don't really get this "argument" - so because it's rare in the UK, that means it never happens, or hardly happens? So there should be no trans remembrance?
There's a world outside the UK as well.

Definitely agree that it does come across as "all lives matter" too.
Yes, of course women's lives are just as important, but "all lives matter" is a great anology - it's about trans remembrance.
Why shouldn't trans people have a trans remembrance day?
It's not always about us, just like the "all lives matter" chirping up when it comes to black lives matter issues.

Yes, of course women's lives are just as important

Clearly not, when the various categories of murdered women and girls in the the U.K. and even larger groups outside of it don't get any 'remembrance'. because it's too bloody common.

Do you really not get it?

Of course 'and remember TWAW! Thats the main thing' on international womens day is absolutely NOT 'all lives matter'ing.

No issue with rememberence day for trans people at all. My issue is when its made out that they are dying in their thousands in the UK because evil terfs make men attack TW by saying mean words and wanting single sex rights/areas.

It's not always about us

It's never fucking about us! 😂 We aren't even allowed to define ourselves as a specific group anymore so how can it be about us?!

OK, yes.
Point taken.
I agree, we should get a day of remembrance too as it's awful how many women are killed in the name of domestic violence etc
Do you not get the point though that doing so on Trans Remembrance Day it comes across as doing exactly the same as the "all lives matter" crew when black lives are spoken about?

The huge difference is that black lives especially in the US really are at greater risk.

Yes, as I asked above, why is it a positive thing to send a message to trans people in the UK that they're at terrible risk of being murdered when this isn't true and the numbers suggest that they're a relatively safe demographic?

I am torn now between sticking around when I said I wasn't going to, and ignoring you when you've asked me a direct question. "Not fun" was supposed to be an understatement. It's depressing me and lord knows there are plenty enough other ways to depress myself tonight if that's my bag.

I do disagree. I have no issue with other people being angry about this issue, or any other issue, but I think it should be ok for someone to say they don't share that anger, and I often feel like it's not ok to say that on here without being hounded for having that opinion. I don't think I'm the only one - hence another poster saying "I may regret this but....'.

I do think some of the statements on this thread belittle trans rights and I find it distasteful. I don't agree that holding up one set of rights is necessarily incompatible with another, hence my comparison with all lives matter.

I would have thought that winning hearts and minds should be a goal yes, if not the main one, if you really want to protect women's rights. Because ultimately that's how you'll get political parties to change tack, or people to vote with you. Why wouldn't you want that in this context? If you're uninterested in building support then by all means pay no heed to this point of view but then we are back to whether there's any point in continuing a discussion that is by no means fun.

Definitely agree that it does come across as "all lives matter" too.

What, and shit like this doesn't?