Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Yes michelle it was also barbie who presented the issue I mentioned earlier wasn't it? That i was hoping to get an opinion on from the opposite side

Where male officers cant search transwomen but female officers cant search prisoners in possession of a penis.

Its another issue that seems to be ignored in the whole " its not a problem" argument

I'm not aware of what the policies are on searching prisoners in Ireland but it doesn't seem like such an insurmountable problem that everyone needs to run round waving their hands in the air going there's literally nothing we can possibly ever do to address this situation.

It has literally nothing to do with validation and everything to do with the fact that trans prisoners are not safe in the male estate.

It 'literally' doesn't.

Otherwise every vulnerable male prisoner would be in the female estate.

Sorry, but the answer is no.

Again.

Do you struggle with reading and comprehension jj ? The quote you posted by Datun quite clearly states that any male with a GRC is automatically placed in the female prison estate irrespective of crime and only once within the female prison estate are they further assessed.

Do you struggle with reading and comprehension jj ?

I'm going to say No. 😁

If prisoners can only be searched with a wand that picks up metal then how do you stop drugs and other weapons getting into prison if officers aren't allowed to search them?

Or does it not matter if prisoners OD on a really bad batch of gear or a prison officer is Stabbed?

Do we blindly trust the transwomen prisoners?

Or do we shrug again and say they'd he kn drugs anyway ...

Then why do we search prisoners at all.

As has been pointed out, jj, that is just what you believe on the 7 attacks. We don’t know how many transwomen committed those attacks and we also don’t know how many women with both a GRA and a penis have sexually attacked natal women in prisons because the information isn’t held. The stats could be far far higher.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/prison-officers-demand-guidelines-on-transgender-inmates-39637102.html

It has literally nothing to do with validation and everything to do with the fact that trans prisoners are not safe in the male estate.

Trans prisoners are not the only males who are vulnerable in men's prisons. Do we just let all vulnerable men into women's prisons? Is that what women and women's prisons are for? To shield males from male violence?

@Mummyoflittledragon

As has been pointed out, jj, that is just what you believe on the 7 attacks. We don’t know how many transwomen committed those attacks and we also don’t know how many women with both a GRA and a penis have sexually attacked natal women in prisons because the information isn’t held. The stats could be far far higher.

Given there are only about 5000 people with a GRC in the UK then the stats on how many are both in prison, and in the female estate and have assaulted someone are not likely to be 'far far higher'.

It has literally nothing to do with validation and everything to do with the fact that trans prisoners are not safe in the male estate

There are a fair few types of prisoners within the male estate that would be deemed as not being safe from other prisoners, should we move all of them into the female estate too? Or should we expect the male prison estate which houses them to keep them safe?

@Duckwit

It has literally nothing to do with validation and everything to do with the fact that trans prisoners are not safe in the male estate.

Trans prisoners are not the only males who are vulnerable in men's prisons. Do we just let all vulnerable men into women's prisons? Is that what women and women's prisons are for? To shield males from male violence?

No they aren't but they are considered some of the most vulnerable for obvious reasons, and as a group, they are more vulnerable than men.

No male should be housed in a female prison. Not one. Vulnerable or not. Trans or not. Not a single one.

I might just drop in every now and again until this thread expires sharing Datun's post.

Who benefits and who loses? Women do not benefit from males in the female estate. Women and girls do not benefit from males in female sports. Women and girls do not benefit from sharing mixed sex spaces with males. Who are we doing any of this FOR? And why? Not women and girls. Any movement that requires women and girls to relinquish their rights to single sex provision is anti-feminist.

Then why not keep them.safe in the mens? I mean cabt they just do whT they do witg the "case by case" ones that get refused?

Why does one prisoner trump the safety of multiple? And why does it not work the other way around? Why is one attack in the womens not enough to never put another male in there?

Wgy are they more important?

I’m sure the women in Irish prisons will be greatly warmed by the fact that you say this problem isn’t surmountable jj. And yet right now for the incarcerated women, it is a very tangible problem and one, which the Irish government was warned about. Perhaps things will change in the future some time. But there needs to be an appetite for change. And debate. And voting. And time to put legislation in place. Not that simple at all eh.

No they aren't but they are considered some of the most vulnerable for obvious reasons, and as a group, they are more vulnerable than men.

Oh please, that's just laughable.

Why is the fact that transwomen as a group more vulnerable than men a problem for women? They are less vulnerable as a group than women as a group. Why can’t they be protected in male prisons?

But if you have to allow a TW too mediocre to play with men onto the women's team, why can't you allow a mediocre man who doesn't identify as a woman onto the women's team? What's the difference between them apart from how they feel?

Well this is a fundamental question that can be applied to all aspects of this issue - it seems that everything and everyone else's feelings must revolve around the feelings of a man.

Man commits a crime. Man feels like a man on 'the inside'. Man wants to go to a female prisons. Man is told that of course he cannot go to a female prison, female prisons are for women.

Man commits a crime. Man feels like a woman on 'the inside'. Man wants to go to a female prison. Man is told that of course he should be allowed to go to a female prison. Women who are uncomfortable with this are 'bigots and haters'.

Man plays sports. Man feels like a man on 'the inside'. Man wants to play on the women's team. Man is told that it would be ridiculous and unfair for him to play on the women's team because he is a man and women's sports are for women.

Man plays sports. Man feels like a woman on 'the inside'. Man wants to play on the women's team, or compete in the women's category. Man is told that of course he should be allowed to do so if that is what he would like to do and he takes some drugs to get his testosterone down a bit. Women who feel uncomfortable with this are 'bigots and haters'.

Man wants to use changing rooms. Man feels like a man on 'the inside'. Man wants to use female changing rooms. Man is told he obviously cannot use the women's changing rooms as they are for women, it wouldn't be great safeguarding and also would make women uncomfortable if he were in there.

Man wants to use changing rooms. Man feels like a woman on 'the inside'. Man wants to use female changing rooms. Man is told that of course he should be allowed to use the women's if that's what he wants to do. Women who are uncomfortable with this are 'bigots and haters'.

So basically, the level of comfort, anxiety, fairness, safety and dignity a woman is allowed to feel at any one time depends entirely on how the male in her vicinity feels on the inside. Whether she is being perfectly reasonable or a massive bigot, entirely depends on what the male decides.

What progress! What liberation for women!

trans prisoners are not safe in the male estate.

conflating two issues there.

Male trans prisoners being unsafe is one issue and there are many ways forward to deal with that need - which I absolutely agree should be dealt with.

Male prisoners not being put in the estate is a totally different issue.

Male prisoners being unsafe does not automatically equate to there being no other answer at all but to put them in the female estate. And as repeatedly pointed out: if some vulnerable males then why not all vulnerable males? If the female estate is going to be regarded as the safe place for males in need of protection and the job of females to absorb, then why not?

If the creation of specialist wings to provide safety, privacy and an additional choice of provision to better match and respect personal identity is not a sufficient answer, then the only thing missing at this point is the physical presence of females. And yes, it becomes about validation and not about safety or privacy or dignity. It becomes about which sex's mental health needs are seen as more vital than another sex's physical safety.

@Duckwit

But if you have to allow a TW too mediocre to play with men onto the women's team, why can't you allow a mediocre man who doesn't identify as a woman onto the women's team? What's the difference between them apart from how they feel?

Well this is a fundamental question that can be applied to all aspects of this issue - it seems that everything and everyone else's feelings must revolve around the feelings of a man.

Man commits a crime. Man feels like a man on 'the inside'. Man wants to go to a female prisons. Man is told that of course he cannot go to a female prison, female prisons are for women.

Man commits a crime. Man feels like a woman on 'the inside'. Man wants to go to a female prison. Man is told that of course he should be allowed to go to a female prison. Women who are uncomfortable with this are 'bigots and haters'.

Man plays sports. Man feels like a man on 'the inside'. Man wants to play on the women's team. Man is told that it would be ridiculous and unfair for him to play on the women's team because he is a man and women's sports are for women.

Man plays sports. Man feels like a woman on 'the inside'. Man wants to play on the women's team, or compete in the women's category. Man is told that of course he should be allowed to do so if that is what he would like to do and he takes some drugs to get his testosterone down a bit. Women who feel uncomfortable with this are 'bigots and haters'.

Man wants to use changing rooms. Man feels like a man on 'the inside'. Man wants to use female changing rooms. Man is told he obviously cannot use the women's changing rooms as they are for women, it wouldn't be great safeguarding and also would make women uncomfortable if he were in there.

Man wants to use changing rooms. Man feels like a woman on 'the inside'. Man wants to use female changing rooms. Man is told that of course he should be allowed to use the women's if that's what he wants to do. Women who are uncomfortable with this are 'bigots and haters'.

So basically, the level of comfort, anxiety, fairness, safety and dignity a woman is allowed to feel at any one time depends entirely on how the male in her vicinity feels on the inside. Whether she is being perfectly reasonable or a massive bigot, entirely depends on what the male decides.

What progress! What liberation for women!

Then there is man, who feels like a man on the inside, but pretends to feel like a woman on the inside. And women, who are uncomfortable with them sharing female prisons, sports, changing rooms, refuges etc are ‘bigots and haters’.

Whether she is being perfectly reasonable or a massive bigot, entirely depends on what the male decides. What progress! What liberation for women!

Precisely. Well put.

We're actually teaching girls from primary school upwards now that their consent and their right to follow the NSPCC pants rule when they feel unsafe must be predicated on checking first whether a male may be offended or distressed by her boundaries.

This is sexism gone to extremes.

Ah ah ah! butterer them's the wrong kind of facts you know.

Karen is indeed brave and stunning for all the hard work Karen does for all sex offenders. You know this is vital work! You should be supportive, offering your help, you being a support human, and all that!

No they aren't but they are considered some of the most vulnerable for obvious reasons, and as a group, they are more vulnerable than other men.

Still not women's problem.