Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

Quite. I'm not going to engage in a game where we pretend there is not one primary characteristic that places TW, gay men and young men in one united class.

I hate to break it to you but they actually let former violent offenders out of prison completely on a case by case basis

Oh for goodness sake. How is that remotely relevant to the issue of placing violent male offenders in female facilities for the duration of their sentence?

@Aesopfable

Is trans inclusion the biggest concern female prisoners have?

So we should only listen to their ‘biggest concerns’? I am sure being raped was the biggest concern of the victim of Karen White. I am sure being housed in a mixed sex prison with the majority of inmates being male and half being sex offenders including being locked up in the same cell as them ‘23 hours a day’ would be their biggest concern if we follow this policy to its conclusion.

You see this is just nonsense. As if women's prisons are going to end up with a majority of prisoners being trans women before anyone notices and thinks there should be a change in policy. They'd have to double the size of the estate for a start. I'm sorry it's ridiculous hyperbole and does you no favours.

The current policy is that trans people can be considered for the other estate after careful assessment on a case by case basis. And the figures show that the vast majority of trans women in prisons are not being held in the female estate, around 11 are. I suspect a mistake was made with White because she was on remand and perhaps measures weren't as stringent. Hopefully one thing that will come out of it is that that has now changed.

And once in the other estate a range of safety measures are employed, including seperate shower and washing arrangements and seperate cells. No-one is being forced to share a cell with a trans women.

What is "case by case" basis anyway I mean either they are women or they aren't.

If someone can be threatened with legal action for not thinking as such then why do the prison service get to decide who's woman enough to get put i to a womens prison.

How do you even justify recording crimes as a women then sending to a womens prison?

Seems women are only women until they commit a crime.

Seems its one rule for us and one for everyone else.

Gay men, old men, disabled men, men with mental health difficulties, all vulnerable. What actual distinction is there between those vulnerable men, and those who identify as women?

Surely it's discriminatory not to allow any man access, if you are allowing men without a GRC?

jj1968

Thanks for those links, they show that all the crimes were carried out by male bodied people, as were the crimes in the link I am now going to post.
Transwomen are male bodied, which means of course that they should never be housed in a women's prison.

transcrimeuk.com/

You see this is just nonsense. As if women's prisons are going to end up with a majority of prisoners being trans women before anyone notices and thinks there should be a change in policy. They'd have to double the size of the estate for a start. I'm sorry it's ridiculous hyperbole and does you no favours.

Tell that to the woman is suing the MOJ for being sexually assaulted by a convicted rapist. In prison. Knowingly.

Tell that to the poor bloody women having to share space with Barbie Kardashian.

Or perhaps, as you say, 'no-one has noticed'.

Then sending to a mens prison..

The current policy is that trans people can be considered for the other estate after careful assessment on a case by case basis. And the figures show that the vast majority of trans women in prisons are not being held in the female estate, around 11 are. I suspect a mistake was made with White because she was on remand and perhaps measures weren't as stringent. Hopefully one thing that will come out of it is that that has now changed.

It depends on whether the transgender person has a GRC or not. According to the Policy for The Care and Management of Individuals who are Transgender:

all individuals who are transgender must be initially allocated to part of the estate which matches their legally recognised gender

I take it you are against self-ID if you think people like Karen White should be kept out of women's prisons.

jj Not so long ago people would have shouted it was hyperbole to suggest sex offenders would end up in a women’s prison at all. And yet here we are. And the only reason you can come up with saying we won’t end up with women’s prisons being majority male is that someone would notice? Notice what exactly?

The current policy is that trans people can be considered for the other estate after careful assessment on a case by case basis

No it isn't. Those with a GRC automatically get housed in the female estate.

A male who has a GRC stating that he is legally a woman is initially placed in a women’s prison. Ordinarily there is no further discussion and the focus is on how to manage him in the female estate.

If he poses a risk to or is at risk from the female prisoners and the risk is too high to manage in a women’s prison, his case is referred to a Transgender Complex Case Board.

Technically, a decision may be to transfer him to a men’s prison. However, in assessing this risk he is still ‘treated as a woman’. What this means is that he can only be transferred to a men’s prison if that same decision would be made for a female prisoner. The fact that he is male must simply be ignored.

Its ok aesop there will be consequences

Its not as if only a miniscule percentage of rapes get prosecuted anyway, I mean female prisoners many of which are victims of abuse from men and some even have brain damage as a result of domestic violence, they absolutely have the money and power to really make sure justice is done

@Aesopfable

jj Not so long ago people would have shouted it was hyperbole to suggest sex offenders would end up in a women’s prison at all. And yet here we are. And the only reason you can come up with saying we won’t end up with women’s prisons being majority male is that someone would notice? Notice what exactly?

That the size of the estate had doubled from 5000 to 10,000 maybe, meaning 5000 prisoners didn't have a cell? This is just silly. There are only just over 100 trans women prisoners in total. Around 11 are in the female estate.

No male should be housed in a female prison. Not one. Vulnerable or not. Trans or not. Not a single one.

It's utterly preposterous. And treating incarcerated women as nothing more than tools of validation.

@Datun

The current policy is that trans people can be considered for the other estate after careful assessment on a case by case basis

No it isn't. Those with a GRC automatically get housed in the female estate.

A male who has a GRC stating that he is legally a woman is initially placed in a women’s prison. Ordinarily there is no further discussion and the focus is on how to manage him in the female estate.

If he poses a risk to or is at risk from the female prisoners and the risk is too high to manage in a women’s prison, his case is referred to a Transgender Complex Case Board.

Technically, a decision may be to transfer him to a men’s prison. However, in assessing this risk he is still ‘treated as a woman’. What this means is that he can only be transferred to a men’s prison if that same decision would be made for a female prisoner. The fact that he is male must simply be ignored.

That quote quite clearly shows they are not automatically placed in the female estate if they are deemed high risk.

There are only just over 100 trans women prisoners in total. Around 11 are in the female estate.

Transwomen with a GRC are recorded as women. Neither you, nor anyone else, has any idea how many there are. Remember? All that campaigning to make it an offence to disclose a person's sex if they have a GRC? Remember that? That's how we don't know now.

What is "case by case" basis anyway I mean either they are women or they aren't.

They make the same argument for women's sport too, that it should be case by case.

But if you have to allow a TW too mediocre to play with men onto the women's team, why can't you allow a mediocre man who doesn't identify as a woman onto the women's team? What's the difference between them apart from how they feel? It'll be the complete end of women's sports. Just men's team and the mixed sex team.

Segregating by sex is the logical answer, it was working alright until a tiny percent of people started stamping their feet because they struggle to accept reality.

And high risk would constitute what?

A conviction for rape and/or violence?

So you know how few races are eveb reported let alone result in a conviction.

No conviction for rape doenst mean they aren't high risk it just means they haven't git caught

That quote quite clearly shows they are not automatically placed in the female estate if they are deemed high risk.

Did you read my post jj?

all individuals who are transgender must be initially allocated to part of the estate which matches their legally recognised gender

Section 4, page 9 of this document:

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/863610/transgender-pf.pdf

@jj1968 wrote:
"There are only just over 100 trans women prisoners in total. Around 11 are in the female estate."

@jj1968 , I have already given you this quote and link today in this thread (repeated below). Did you not read it?

The Mail, July 2019.

'The figures, in the annual report by Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons, suggest there are 1,500 transgender inmates in England and Wales – ten times more than government estimates.

Only six months ago, the Ministry of Justice said there were just 139 transgender prisoners.'

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7230755/One-50-male-prisoners-identify-female.html

A conviction for rape and/or violence?

Barbie and White both placed in the women's estate with a long history, and in the case of Barbie, an openly stated intention was part of the information the press have had access to. So based just on the information placed in the public domain, the considerable and obvious risks were not deemed too high for the women they were placed with.

To place women, who cannot choose, who cannot escape, into this position at risk of sustaining harm for the benefit of male people is wicked. That is not a word I use lightly, and I don't use it in the trendy sense.

Yes michelle it was also barbie who presented the issue I mentioned earlier wasn't it? That i was hoping to get an opinion on from the opposite side

Where male officers cant search transwomen but female officers cant search prisoners in possession of a penis.

Its another issue that seems to be ignored in the whole " its not a problem" argument

@Datun

No male should be housed in a female prison. Not one. Vulnerable or not. Trans or not. Not a single one.

It's utterly preposterous. And treating incarcerated women as nothing more than tools of validation.

It has literally nothing to do with validation and everything to do with the fact that trans prisoners are not safe in the male estate.

Eleven transgender inmates sexually assaulted in male prisons last year

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52748117

Interestingly of the 7 assaults carried out by trans people in the female estate over a period of nine years the Prison Minister said this:

Last week, ministers revealed that out of 124 sexual assaults in five women's jails over the previous nine years, from 2010 to 2018, seven had been carried out by trans prisoners.

Ms Frazer said the total included those who were born female but identified as men, non-binary or intersex, as well as people who were male by birth and now identified as female.

So of those 7 incidents, 2 of which seem to refer to Karen White, some of the remainder were committed by people who were born physically female. For all we know White could be the only trans women prisoner accused of a sexual assault.

So the figures are very clear. Trans people in prisons are far far more likely to be a victim of sexual assault then to have committed an assault themselves. Now I know you'll say don't care, not my problem to sort out men but thankfully prison authorities do not have that luxury and have to consider the safety needs of everyone. Which is why routinely housing all trans women in the male estate has been recognised as a safety risk and new policies have been and are still being developed in an attempt to ensure the safety as far as it is possible of everyone.

Tedious though they are, these threads are always useful to inform anyone who is lurking.

This one is letting people know exactly how convicted rapists are being put in female prisons and assaulting the women. Not to mention the intimidation tactics leading up to the assaults. Absolutely disgusting stuff.

Most women would not need more than a nanosecond's reflection to fully appreciate how intimidating that entire situation would be from the off.

And, just as importantly of course, how some people attempt to justify it.

So why dies the potential rape of 1 transwomen trump the potentiate of multiple females ?

Why is rape only an argument when it benefits males?