Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

ironically, I have just read more details about K. Dolotowski (the rapist of the 11 yo girl in Morrison's toilets).

Ms Dolotowski was only allowed into the toilets but they claimed transgender status. The little girl was in there on her own because her father was waiting outside..... just so wrong.

Ms D. has been housed in women's sheltered accomm.

So if Ms. D. had been prevented by the escorting social worker from going into the women's toilets, that little girl would not now have had that traumatic attack which is likely to damage her sense of personal safety for ever and has affected her and her family greatly.

So, in my book that is one attack too many that was entirely preventable. The policy of allowing any males into the ladies toilets is unacceptable on any grounds.

Keir Starmer and all other politicians need to grow a brain and sort this out now!!

@Tanith

"There's been one I'm aware of. Can you name more than one? "

Can you give us evidence of when trans women have been attacked by men in the gents? Since it's so unsafe, there must be quite a few incidents for you to choose from.

Trans women don't use the gents so I imagine the number is very low. I doubt many women have been attacked in men's toilets.

There is a study here which found 9% of trans people had been physically assaulted whilst using a public toilet, and one trans woman (out of just 29) reported being sexually assaulted in a men's toilet: trans-gnc-resources.com/mdocs-posts/gendered-restrooms-and-minority-stress-the-public-regulation-of-gender-and-its-impact-on-transgender-peoples-lives/

There has also been a correlation found which showed that trans young people reported higher levels of sexual assaults in schools which did not permit bathroom use inline with aquired gender: trans-gnc-resources.com/mdocs-posts/gendered-restrooms-and-minority-stress-the-public-regulation-of-gender-and-its-impact-on-transgender-peoples-lives/

There's also been a study largely focussed on trans men which found gender restricted toilets were likely to have an impact of psychological health: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5685206/

Taken together, our qualitative and quantitative findings converge on a primary message and recommendations: transgender-related bathroom policies limiting use to sex assigned at birth or requiring use of only single-stall bathrooms will likely have a negative impact on health outcomes among TGNC youth. Policies that create more restrictive bathroom options for transgender students will likely create environments in which TGNC youth feel less safe in bathrooms and in school. Based on our data, this could lead to an increase in perceived stigma and discrimination, and less resilience, self-esteem, and lower QoL for these youth.

[quote OldCrone]An assault by a transwoman on a 10-year-old girl in a private bathroom. We don't want people like this in women's spaces.

nypost.com/2017/10/20/transgender-woman-convicted-of-sexually-assaulting-girl/

Sexual assaults on women by males in unisex changing rooms. If transwomen use women's changing rooms then the changing rooms are unisex.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Sex offender who sexually assaulted a 7-year-old identifies as a woman. We don't want men like this in women's spaces.

www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/local-news/littlehey-prison-paedophiles-cambridgeshire-cooper-15108328

Lots more here jj. Have a read.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread[/quote]
Shall I take it from that you are unable to name more than one assault committed by a trans person in a public toilet, which is what was under discussion.

I always wonder why some people are so insistent that women and girls must share changing rooms, toilets, showers and places where women are vulnerable with men who self identify as women.
What is the reason they are so determined to disrespect women's boundaries?

It's not all about safety. Privacy and dignity, the choice to be away from the male gaze matter too.

@persistentwoman

I always wonder why some people are so insistent that women and girls must share changing rooms, toilets, showers and places where women are vulnerable with men who self identify as women. What is the reason they are so determined to disrespect women's boundaries?

I'd also like to know the answer to that. Perhaps jj can enlighten us.

The study posted at 20:52 says “ Eight respondents (9 percent) reported experiencing at least one instance of physical assault in gender-segregated public restrooms. Like the term “verbal harassment” discussed above, “physical assault” was defined very broadly in this survey to capture a range of experiences respondents had where an altercation involving physical contact with others occurred.”. It’s a survey, where there was a $50 prize for taking part. It was only 4 male to female people. The others were female to male (2) or female to gender queer (2). Violence included being physically required to leave. There was a strong correlation with being black and being poor. It’s not clear that being trans was a factor at all.

This is not strong evidence against single sex toilets.

@persistentwoman

I always wonder why some people are so insistent that women and girls must share changing rooms, toilets, showers and places where women are vulnerable with men who self identify as women. What is the reason they are so determined to disrespect women's boundaries?

How would you feel if you were suddenly forced to use only men's spaces? That's how trans women who've been using spaces inline with their gender for decades in some cases feel when it's suggested to them.

The thing that makes a facility a women’s facility is restricting it to women. Removing the restriction stops it being a women’s facility and women loose it?

Shall I take it from that you are unable to name more than one assault committed by a trans person in a public toilet, which is what was under discussion.

I posted evidence of incidents where men who self-identified as 'transwomen' had assaulted women and girls. Does it really matter where these assaults took place? Do you think that such assaults are more likely or less likely to happen in toilets if such self identified 'transwomen' are allowed to enter any female-only place they choose? Why does a specific type of assault have to happen in a specific place a certain number of times (how many times, exactly, in your opinion?) before that circumstance is seen as posing a real danger to women and girls?

I have no doubt that there have been many incidents which I'm not aware of. I can't possibly know of everything which has ever happened in the entire world.

These laws and societal norms regarding single sex spaces are there to protect women and girls before enormous numbers of violent incidents take place. What is your reasoning that vast numbers of women and girls should first be assaulted, and then, and only then, can we see fit to try to avoid such incidents being repeated? And how many incidences would be enough to convince you? For me, just one is one too many. Is Dolatowski's victim just reasonable collateral damage for you in your quest for validation?

In your ideal world, where self-identified 'transwomen' can enter female only spaces at will, how do women and girls tell the difference between:
a. A harmless transwoman, who is no threat to anyone
b. A man pretending to be a transwoman, who may be a threat
c. A man who is not pretending to be a transwoman, who may also be a threat?

Because as far as I can tell, the difference is all in their heads and none of us are mind readers.

The $200/month US business women paid for the Wing no longer seemed worth it when men were allowed in a visitors.

@StrippedFridge

It's not all about safety. Privacy and dignity, the choice to be away from the male gaze matter too.

I agree with this, it should be part of the conversation, my point is that when it comes to increased risk there is no evidence trans inclusion has caused harm.

But privacy and dignity considerations should cut both ways as well. How dignified do you think a trans woman would feel hitching up her dress to use a urinal whilst the men around her sniggered or glared or worse? And that's assuming she hasn't had surgery. Men's toilets are not designed for trans women.

That's how trans women who've been using spaces inline with their gender for decades in some cases feel when it's suggested to them.

What do you mean by 'gender' here? A feeling in their head? Why is that more important than their bodies, which are visible and real. Anyone can declare anything they want about what's going on in their head. Why should that have anything to do with where they go to the toilet, which is all about bodies?

I agree with this, it should be part of the conversation, my point is that when it comes to increased risk there is no evidence trans inclusion has caused harm.

Men who self-identify as transwomen have sexually assaulted women and girls. Some of them are in prison for these offences. How is this 'no evidence'?

I posted evidence of incidents where men who self-identified as 'transwomen' had assaulted women and girls. Does it really matter where these assaults took place?

Yes of course it matters when what was under discussion was the prevalence of risk from trans inclusion in toilets.

Do you think that such assaults are more likely or less likely to happen in toilets if such self identified 'transwomen' are allowed to enter any female-only place they choose?

Well given the situation is already precisely that when it comes to toilets in pretty much every comparable country including the UK and there has only ever been one reported incident of an attack carried out by a trans woman in a woman's toilet then no i don't think attacks are more likely and there is considerable evidence to back that up, all of which I have posted before on here.

But privacy and dignity considerations should cut both ways as well. How dignified do you think a trans woman would feel hitching up her dress to use a urinal whilst the men around her sniggered or glared or worse? And that's assuming she hasn't had surgery. Men's toilets are not designed for trans women

They are designed for the male body

Males shouldn't be laughing at other male bodied people however they present

That's not up to women to absorb

And what consututes a transwomen in your eyes ? Anyone who says they are ?

How dignified do you think a trans woman would feel hitching up her dress to use a urinal whilst the men around her sniggered or glared or worse? And that's assuming she hasn't had surgery. Men's toilets are not designed for trans women.

Don't men's toilets have cubicles?

And it's not women's job to look after men who are laughed at by other men, at the expense of their own dignity and safety. Men need to grow up and stop sniggering like schoolboys at anyone who's a bit different. And it's not women's job to sort them out either.

I haven't read the entire thread but it occurs to me that the OP is exaggerated dogmatic nonsense. Stating your support for the trans community means you hate women.? How ridiculous.

Well given the situation is already precisely that when it comes to toilets in pretty much every comparable country including the UK and there has only ever been one reported incident of an attack carried out by a trans woman in a woman's toilet then no i don't think attacks are more likely and there is considerable evidence to back that up, all of which I have posted before on here.

Well if that's true, why do you spend so much time on here whining?

Another thread now about toilets, with yet more 'no that evidence is no good' 'nope, that was in changing rooms instead', 'nope, not peer reviewed', 'I will do what I want anyway', 'stop being mean to males', 'what about transwomen though?!?!?!?!?! Nevermind women'. Same old same old.

@KaptainKaveman

I haven't read the entire thread but it occurs to me that the OP is exaggerated dogmatic nonsense. Stating your support for the trans community means you hate women.? How ridiculous.

But no one said that, so it's you who's being ridiculous.

@VulvaPerson

Another thread now about toilets, with yet more 'no that evidence is no good' 'nope, that was in changing rooms instead', 'nope, not peer reviewed', 'I will do what I want anyway', 'stop being mean to males', 'what about transwomen though?!?!?!?!?! Nevermind women'. Same old same old.

But nobody has presented any evidence which has shown that trans inclusion in toilets is a risk. Yes some trans people have committed crimes, as have all other kinds of people. Yes some men have assaulted women in gender neutral spaces. But specific evidence revealing trans inclusive toilet policies create additional risk? None, no-one has posted anything remotely resembling evidence of a risk related to toilets, yet you still seem to claim I'm ignoring the evidence when you haven't presented any.

If I listed all the men - some identifying as women and some not - who have been found peeping, photographing, recording and assaulting women in toilets and changing rooms it would take for ever. The data is horrifying. Some of those men went on to make policy removing sex segregated spaces for women in their roles as civil servants and politicians. I wonder why?
Men are the problem and self ID allows any man to demand to be included.
Disrespecting this fact and demanding that women sacrifice our safety and that of our daughters is unacceptable, no matter how you spin it.
Women don't want mixed sex spaces and that's not going to change.

Why the demands of this tiny groups of men who self identify as women trump the rights of the majority of women who do not want to share these spaces with them?

Don't forget jj - all the sex offenders currently in prison have had their numerous sex crimes listed as 'women's ' offences. So the data has been completely hidden from sight.
Funny that.

That should say "all the trans sex offenders" - obviously not every sex offence has been listed as a female statistic!