Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

@jj1968 you forgot to answer this part of my earlier post:

In your ideal world, where self-identified 'transwomen' can enter female only spaces at will, how do women and girls tell the difference between:

a. A harmless transwoman, who is no threat to anyone
b. A man pretending to be a transwoman, who may be a threat
c. A man who is not pretending to be a transwoman, who may also be a threat?

Because as far as I can tell, the difference is all in their heads and none of us are mind readers.

@OldCrone

How dignified do you think a trans woman would feel hitching up her dress to use a urinal whilst the men around her sniggered or glared or worse? And that's assuming she hasn't had surgery. Men's toilets are not designed for trans women.

Don't men's toilets have cubicles?

And it's not women's job to look after men who are laughed at by other men, at the expense of their own dignity and safety. Men need to grow up and stop sniggering like schoolboys at anyone who's a bit different. And it's not women's job to sort them out either.

Given that your response to trans people's concerns about safety, privacy and dignity are basically tough shit then why do you expect trans women to care what you think, particularly when the vast majority of women have no problem with trans inclusive toilets? I mean I think trans people should care, but there's a bit of a double standard here wouldn;t you say.

But Jj you haven't given any reason why it is better for women to let males in to their toilets. You have explained why some males want to come in but not why that's anything to do with women. The ladies isn't a generalised sanctuary for anybody at risk.

@TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair

'Your fight is our fight too' is very inflammatory given that in reality much of that 'fight' involves a group of people threatening women and trying to block us from having single sex spaces. It's very poorly worded by someone who should be skilled at rhetoric. 'Trans rights are human rights,' while utterly meaningless, would have been a gesture of support without making anyone feel threatened.

I'm so disappointed. I like Starmer in many ways. I think he's fundamentally a decent human but I won't vote Labour now.

This

Why are you obsessed with toilets jj? You turn every thread you post on into a 'let me into the women's toilets' thread.

This thread is supposed to be about Keir Starmer.

jj I’ve got a feeling that we’ve all been here before but I had a quick look and found a bit of evidence for you.

In the year to March 2017 there were 510,000 rapes and sexual assaults on women. I imagine some of them would have ended up being in women’s spaces. Trouble is it so common that only certain exceptional attacks get picking by the media - and less so now with the apparent suppression of many media outlets.

It is not just toilets though, it is all single second spaces. That is why they are legally protected in the EA 2010.

What are your thoughts on Keir Starmer’s remembrance of zero people jj? Or do you only like talking about toilets?

rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/about-sexual-violence/statistics-sexual-violence/

Oops link

the vast majority of women have no problem with trans inclusive toilets

In any poll where that's the result it's likely to be because those women think that a 'transwoman' is a gay man who has had his penis removed.

When they realise that most of those 'transwomen' are heterosexual and nearly all of them (95%-ish) still have a penis and have no intention of having it amputated, they change their minds. And if they've heard of autogynephilia, they're even less likely to want those 'transwomen' in women's spaces.

It all depends on what questions you ask, and how much the person answering understands about the current situation. There was a poll where people were given the full facts, and it didn't get the result you state.

Given that your response to trans people's concerns about safety, privacy and dignity are basically tough shit

It's not really. It's just that your argument of 'some men bully some other men therefore women should look after the victims of the bullies' is a poor one. We're not your mother. Get over it.

It's gaslighting 101.
Everyone knows that women don't want to undress, use the toilet, share a hospital ward or prison cell with strange men. Yet in this brand new world we are expected to believe it when someone says 'women don't mind'
Yes they do - our mothers, our daughters, our friends, our nieces, our grandmothers our cousins and the rest do not wish to be undressed or vulnerable in front of unknown men. It's a lie and deeply oppressive to state otherwise.

the vast majority of women have no problem with trans inclusive toilets
I have no problem with trans inclusive toilet where that means women are accepting of transmen in the women's and men are accepting of transwomen in the gents. I think most women feel the same. Most men too.

So tiresome to be on about toilets again.

The toilets in the men's are, of course, exactly the same as the ones in the women's.

Why someone wearing a dress would try to use a urinal instead of using the toilet is beyond me.

I wonder if anyone has pointed out to Sir Keir that even the number of transgender deaths in Brazil were lower than may be expected in relation to the overall deaths - 47,000 murders last year and 167 being transgender people (where the population proportions would expect a number between 235-470). Great news for transgender people in Brazil.

So have we worked out who Sir K. has remembered yet?

If he does this much for zero people in the uk, how big should the commemorations be for the hundreds of women killed in the same timeframe??

Oops sorry, link.

@gardenbird48

What are your thoughts on Keir Starmer’s remembrance of zero people jj? Or do you only like talking about toilets?

It wasn't me who brought up toilets, I just corrected the claim there are been 'quite a few' incdients where women have been attacked by trans women in toilets because it wasn't true.

I'm glad no-one who was openly trans was murdered last year, as far as we know. I don't see why that should stop Starmer recognising the International Day of Transgender Rememberence which remembers murdered trans women from all over the world, as well as those murdered historically, and also for many trans people is used to remember people lost to suicide.

In the UK the evidence suggests that trans women are murdered at the same rate as other women. But this masks the massive levels of sexual violence, physical violence and harassment that all women, including trans women, routinely face. So I don't really see why no-one trans was murdered last year is seen as such a gotcha.

In the UK the evidence suggests that trans women are murdered at the same rate as other women.

Two women a week. Zero transwomen in a year. Yeah. No.

@gardenbird48

I wonder if anyone has pointed out to Sir Keir that even the number of transgender deaths in Brazil were lower than may be expected in relation to the overall deaths - 47,000 murders last year and 167 being transgender people (where the population proportions would expect a number between 235-470). Great news for transgender people in Brazil.

So have we worked out who Sir K. has remembered yet?

If he does this much for zero people in the uk, how big should the commemorations be for the hundreds of women killed in the same timeframe??

If a group of feminists decided to organise a day of rememberence for murdered women then I would hope Starmer supported that as well. But someone's got to organise it, these things don't spring out of thin air. The reason the transgender day of rememberence exists is because trans people organised it. Yet there seems to be an insinuation that there's something wrong with that because no-one has organised a day for non trans woman. I think most trans people would support any such day, I certainly would.

@StrippedFridge

In the UK the evidence suggests that trans women are murdered at the same rate as other women.

Two women a week. Zero transwomen in a year. Yeah. No.

You are familar with basic arithmetic I assume? If trans women represent 0.3% of women, then given around 250 women are murdered every year then you would expect trans women to be murdered at a rate of slightly less than one a year. Which they are.

No they are not, the evidence shows that transwomen are the safest demographic.

The only day of remembrance we have in this country is Remembrance Sunday to remember the millions who died in war so we can have our freedom.

Why should a group that is apparently the safest in the uk (and not doing so badly elsewhere if Brazil is anything to go by) be elevated to the same status as those millions?
You mention the massive levels of violence all women face - why is Sir K actively avoiding acknowledging us, our murdered women and raped women as the numbers are significant. He is currently appearing to support the active campaign to remove our rights do can you forgive women for feeling a bit narky about it? As I say, I’m expecting a fuck off big hoopla for women this week!!

And how do you know that women haven’t been attacked in toilets by transwomen? Because we haven’t run around and provided a list for you when crimes are recorded in such a way as to deliberately obscure that information??
And at the end if the day if you propose to let any male who says he is female into the toilets that is a problem and attacks will happen.

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

If trans women represent 0.3% of women

Technically 0.3% of men.

But it shows how sexually violent they are compared to actual women, when there are at least 46 transwomen in prison in the UK for sexual offences (and a possible 32 more), and only 126 women in prison for that sort of crime (some of whom might actually be transwomen with GRCs, who would be counted as female for statistical purposes).

If women committed these offences at the same rate as transwomen, assuming the 0.3% figure is correct, there would be about 15,000 women in prison for sex offences. Interestingly, there are just under 14,000 men in prison for these sorts of offences, showing that transwomen commit sex offences at approximately the same rate as other men.

If transwomen committed sexual offences at the same rate as women, there would be no more than 1 transwoman in prison for this sort of offence.

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/

No they are not, the evidence shows that transwomen are the safest demographic.

What evidence? That factcheck refers to trans people overall, including trans men and those who (in GIRES words) are gender variant to some degree in which case their gender variant status may not be known if they were murdered. All but one I think of the victims of murder over the last few years were transitioned trans women (and the one who wasn't was female presenting but identified as gender fluid as I recall). It then goes on to say that trans people overall (not trans women) are murdered at a lower rate than people overall (not women). We know men are murdered at a much higher rate. That factcheck isn't evidence of anything remotely approaching your claim that trans women are the safest demographic. So where's your evidence, or is this just another GC soundbite that is regularly parrotted but never substantiated?

It wasn't me who brought up toilets, I just corrected the claim there are been 'quite a few' incdients where women have been attacked by trans women in toilets because it wasn't true

Interesting, I see my post that you're referring to has been deleted. The term I used was 'sexual crimes', not 'attacks' - this includes voyeurism and so my statement was correct.

In any case, I understand people's objections to rehashing the same invalid arguments about toilets yet again so I won't say any more about it.

[quote OldCrone]If trans women represent 0.3% of women

Technically 0.3% of men.

But it shows how sexually violent they are compared to actual women, when there are at least 46 transwomen in prison in the UK for sexual offences (and a possible 32 more), and only 126 women in prison for that sort of crime (some of whom might actually be transwomen with GRCs, who would be counted as female for statistical purposes).

If women committed these offences at the same rate as transwomen, assuming the 0.3% figure is correct, there would be about 15,000 women in prison for sex offences. Interestingly, there are just under 14,000 men in prison for these sorts of offences, showing that transwomen commit sex offences at approximately the same rate as other men.

If transwomen committed sexual offences at the same rate as women, there would be no more than 1 transwoman in prison for this sort of offence.

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/[/quote]
I think you need to be very careful claiming that the number of people in prison for something are a reflection of an inherent charicteristic of that group. Some ethnic groups are hugely over-represented in prisons, as are lesbians and bisexual women. Is this because of some kind of inherent criminality, or is it because of social factors and prejudice within the criminal justice system?

@Impatiens

It wasn't me who brought up toilets, I just corrected the claim there are been 'quite a few' incdients where women have been attacked by trans women in toilets because it wasn't true

Interesting, I see my post that you're referring to has been deleted. The term I used was 'sexual crimes', not 'attacks' - this includes voyeurism and so my statement was correct.

In any case, I understand people's objections to rehashing the same invalid arguments about toilets yet again so I won't say any more about it.

Then neither will I except to say this

The term I used was 'sexual crimes', not 'attacks' - this includes voyeurism and so my statement was correct.

No it wasn't unless you've got any evidence of trans women committing voyeurism and other sexual offences in women's toilets.

Is this because of some kind of inherent criminality, or is it because of social factors and prejudice within the criminal justice system?

It's been suggested by some people who work with prisoners that not all those who identify as 'transwomen' are genuine.

But of course nobody would pretend to be a transwoman if they weren't genuine, would they? That never happens.