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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kier shows his colours

999 replies

averylongtimeago · 21/11/2020 09:50

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

Kier shows his colours
OP posts:
Escapeplanning · 22/11/2020 19:19

Absolutely, and if women like longestlurkerever don't see the need for sex segregation they can take their young daughters into the men's as it's not meant to be safe anyway. Their daughters will soon get used to it.

jj1968 · 22/11/2020 19:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes deleted post

Escapeplanning · 22/11/2020 19:24

Hahaha 😅 Off we go.

longestlurkerever you should chat with jj , you might have stuff in common or then again you might realise you don't.

MichelleofzeResistance · 22/11/2020 19:30

the sad reality is

That what was it - 95% of assaults on women by strangers in facilities were carried out in mixed sex facilities?

The sad reality is though that nothing would ever convince you that females had any entitlement or justification to refuse male entry to their spaces, because that does not fit your agenda.

Males entering female spaces doesn't fit my agenda, or the agenda of many other females, regardless of how many times you handwave away their concerns and tell them they're just being a bit silly.

7Days · 22/11/2020 19:32

Then tw can use their bio sex loos, cant they Jj.
Being attacked is not that common, and anyway if something happens the victim can report it.

donquixotedelamancha · 22/11/2020 19:33

I would be more inclined to ask why a particular group need a day of remembrance when as far as I am aware they haven't actually been persecuted. Nothing like the huge numbers who died in war, or the Nazi death camps, or as a result of the horrors of the slave trade.

I tend to agree. It seems a very odd thing to celebrate this in the UK. TDoR is supposedly to remember those 'murdered because of transphobia'. IIRC the last transwoman murdered in the UK was during an argument with her boyfriend. Quite a few of the others are murdered during sex work.

There must presumably have been some people murdered by transphobic bigots because of who they were at some point; but it seems so rare that no one can actually name them on TDoR that I can find.

I don't think now is the time to make that point for the reasons discussed upthread but I'd certainly like to see people asking politicians at another time why they don't spend more energy Von the hundreds of women murdered in DV.

MichelleofzeResistance · 22/11/2020 19:37

It was 90% from a quick google. And more than 1000 assaults on mixed sex mental health wards. And the statistics from Target's experiment with gender inclusive changing rooms showed that upskirting and voyeuristic crime against women more than doubled.

Not many up sides in this for females, are there?

donquixotedelamancha · 22/11/2020 19:42

eventually you realise that you need to take seriously what many trans activists are saying and that the only qualification required for someone to be trans, and thus to be a transwoman or a transman, is for them to say "I am a woman/I am a man/I am trans". Once they say those words, then, according to many, they must have complete freedom to access all opposite sex single sex spaces.

This. It took me aaaaages to believe that. I thought people were speaking figuratively or referring only to social contexts. I just couldn't accept that large, serious organisations like Stonewall or the Lib Dems were actually campaigning for men to be able to get transferred to women's prisons, play women's sport, use women's refuges purely from their own say so.

I was wrong.

OldCrone · 22/11/2020 19:43

There's been one I'm aware of. Can you name more than one?

There have been lots of assaults by males in women's toilets and changing rooms. As you know, there is no way to tell the difference between a 'genuine transwoman', a man who says he is a transwoman, and a man.

jj1968 · 22/11/2020 19:43

@MichelleofzeResistance

It was 90% from a quick google. And more than 1000 assaults on mixed sex mental health wards. And the statistics from Target's experiment with gender inclusive changing rooms showed that upskirting and voyeuristic crime against women more than doubled.

Not many up sides in this for females, are there?

I thought we were talking about toilets. The Target study was not peer reviewed by the way and had such a woeful methodology that it isn't evidence of anything.
Mummyoflittledragon · 22/11/2020 19:43

@jj1968
I don’t have the info. Others will whip it up for you for sure. Even if it were just one time, which it isn’t, one time is enough and one time too many.

Impatiens · 22/11/2020 19:48

@jj1968 I don’t have the info. Others will whip it up for you for sure

As we can already see, this poster isn't interested in the stats, just in pushing the agenda.

Tanith · 22/11/2020 19:48

"There's been one I'm aware of. Can you name more than one? "

Can you give us evidence of when trans women have been attacked by men in the gents? Since it's so unsafe, there must be quite a few incidents for you to choose from.

gardenbird48 · 22/11/2020 19:50

@longestlurkerever

How do you feel about unisex loos? We have some of those at work, with enclosed cubicles you can't see under. I suppose that's why I don't see it as a safe space - safe space is something that to me needs to exist in order for women to be safe. Sex segregated loos, I'm not so sure we need.
if they were individual lockable spaces with a handwash basin inside, then not so bad (although if men are allowed to use them it still facilitates voyeurism/filming of women as no male is at risk of being challenged if seen entering - see recently court cases involving Sainsbury's and I think another organisation that had mixed sex facilities) but not ideal.

The difficulty we are facing here, as Michelle points out is that we pretty much need 'one size fits all'. As a society we need very clear and simple rules that can be followed by people with all levels of 'understanding capacity'.

We need to be able to work out quickly and easily what we need to do in all types of toilets, council run public toilets, toilets in an educational establishment etc etc. to ensure safeguarding of women and children.

Up until recently, we had a social contract that was pretty much set in stone. No male ever dreamed of entering the ladies toilets unless they were a contract cleaner with express authorisation and a big sign to shut the toilets while he was cleaning (like our local supermarket) or were a bad guy up to no good. In the latter case, there was a strong likelihood that if anyone spotted him they could make a fuss and get the situation sorted out.

Nowadays, we are being asked to attempt to risk assess every single situation and to try and judge every individual based on their appearance and their possible motivations which as you can imagine isn't ideal and makes it far more likely to create problems.

Normally in society, if a problem or risk is apparent, we expect the authorities to help us mitigate or prevent that risk. At present, the push seems to be to facilitate that risk.

thank you again for your engagement longest, next question (if you don't mind) - do your daughters use public toilets (at the supermarket for eg) on their own yet and what guidance have you given to them to try and assess whether she thinks someone might do her harm? Especially when entering an enclosed space with one exit and possibly no one else around?

What would you do if you saw a youngish girl go into the toilets and then noticed a man appear to follow her in?

Impatiens · 22/11/2020 19:51

YAAAAY!!!!

Impatiens · 22/11/2020 19:56

Sorry about that - it was meant to be on the Strictly thread! Blush

OldCrone · 22/11/2020 19:56

An assault by a transwoman on a 10-year-old girl in a private bathroom. We don't want people like this in women's spaces.

nypost.com/2017/10/20/transgender-woman-convicted-of-sexually-assaulting-girl/

Sexual assaults on women by males in unisex changing rooms. If transwomen use women's changing rooms then the changing rooms are unisex.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Sex offender who sexually assaulted a 7-year-old identifies as a woman. We don't want men like this in women's spaces.

www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/local-news/littlehey-prison-paedophiles-cambridgeshire-cooper-15108328

Lots more here jj. Have a read.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Aesopfable · 22/11/2020 19:56

Just glanced in again. Is that jj wanting court reports to be peer reviewed before accepting it as evidence? Funny how the bar gets moved each time soneone provides evidence. And yet no such requirement the other way...

MichelleofzeResistance · 22/11/2020 20:01

Yes jj I'm aware that there is no evidence that will ever be enough for you to accept female people's right to express concerns and to not want to do this. You don't believe that females have the right to say no, and you would only consider their needs if, and only if, a piece of evidence that completely met your terms in every way, showed sufficient danger and harm having happened to females.

Got it. Message fully received and understood. So excuse me that I'm sharing evidence generally to the thread.

Mummyoflittledragon · 22/11/2020 20:02

[quote Impatiens]**@jj1968 I don’t have the info. Others will whip it up for you for sure

As we can already see, this poster isn't interested in the stats, just in pushing the agenda.[/quote]
Oh and there we have it OldCrone has produced the stats as I said someone would. It is incredibly sad that wanting to keep natal women safe from predatory males is seen as “pushing the agenda” by some humans. Ffs.

donquixotedelamancha · 22/11/2020 20:05

I thought we were talking about toilets.

Toilets are a red herring in some respects. A passing transwoman faces no practical barriers to using them. It's the principle in law of single sex spaces which is so important and the cultural barriers which police that principle.

If women lose the right to single sex spaces then any male can use women's toilets. Lots of women have explained why this is bad. Once that principle is lost then there is no protection in sports, prisons etc.

longestlurkerever · 22/11/2020 20:05

Yes those are the kind of toilets we have at work with the fully enclosed cubicles. What I can't remember properly as it's so long since I was in the office is whether they all open directly on to the corridor or whether there's still the one exit thing going on before you get to the cubicles. That's what I meant that there seems to be a privacy issue but I wasn't so sure there was a requirement for a safe space as such. Thanks for answering. Many cafes for example would only have one loo and disabled people are usually faced with a unisex loo. They are obviously enclosed rooms but they are not sex segregated.

I haven't really addressed that with my dds I admit.

Impatiens · 22/11/2020 20:08

@Mummyoflittledragon

You've misunderstood me - I was referring to 'jj' pushing their trans activist agenda. Probably shouldn't have quoted you..not doing very well here at the mo, lol!

MichelleofzeResistance · 22/11/2020 20:09

It's just ongoing evidence of the sexism prevalent in society, that it's acceptable for male born people to be the sole arbiters of what female people may have, and making their own objective judgements on what evidence matters sufficiently and when sufficient boundaries have been breached that they may need to take action to manage females in a different way.

As if females are children. Some subordinate race that are a bit silly and illogical and need their betters to make proper decisions on their behalf. And for some reason the believers in this seem to think that females, in 2020, are going to just go along with them on this as if it's still 1950.

MichelleofzeResistance · 22/11/2020 20:11

Toilets are a red herring in some respects.

Sorry, they stay an issue for me. There's a Muslim woman in my area who has been talking to the papers that she can no longer use toilets in a public space because of inclusive policies that exclude her. And no one cares. To me this is a really awful thing.

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