Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

@Joswis

Echo chamber, self congratulating, totally deaf to any argument that doesn't fit the terf world view, even the lived experience of others.

For those that need support, please know, not all feminists are right-wing gender extremists.

We don't use that term here, dear. And this site is heabing with lefty women.

Feminists support all WOMEN, no matter how they identify. Men, no. Again, no matter how they identify.

*heaving

That's a bit rich, Jos, from someone whose only response to being told she's triggering dysphoria is, basically, "Well fuck off then."

@Joswis

Echo chamber, self congratulating, totally deaf to any argument that doesn't fit the terf world view, even the lived experience of others.

For those that need support, please know, not all feminists are right-wing gender extremists.

Hilarious.

Mumsnet is actually one of the few websites that doesn’t have the ability to function as an echo chamber.
You can’t block anyone, for starters.
It doesn’t have friends/followers capability
Boards are arranged by latest post, rather than most popular or to feed you more of the type of content you have recently interacted with.
Even the tiny ‘trending now’ section is based on what other users are doing right that moment, so content appears there that you has nothing to do with what your personal interests are.

It’s mostly AIBU and chat, but you get some TTC and Babynames posts etc. I’ve never once been to those sections of my own accord, because I’d already gotten past that stage of motherhood before I joined the site.

Anyway, words have meanings and ‘echo chamber’ describes the way social media sites silo people off via algorithms.

Oh, and the vast majority of FWR believe in taxation to pay for decent public services, accessible to all, a welfare safety net and enough of a government structure to deliver those things so you might want to spend some time checking your understanding of left/right political wings.

And finally, have you actually read Butterer’s ‘lived experience’?

HTH!

Excellent summary, btw, Eresh.

I just love how Jos dismisses your summary, in which you provide no commentary other than the words of trans(women)inclusive feminists, as being close minded and, bizarrely, right wing.

If the points aren’t good enough, and if they seem silly and unconvincing when listed like that, then...bring better points?

Ironic then that you have a supporter with the banned word as a username.

Get my post deleted, why not? That's what you want. Like Trump, to shut up any dissenters and sit on your flat earth.

What flat earth? Knowing that sex is immutable?

I don't know about other commenters, but I want your post left up.

@Joswis

Ironic then that you have a supporter with the banned word as a username.

Get my post deleted, why not? That's what you want. Like Trump, to shut up any dissenters and sit on your flat earth.

Mumsnet rules are a bit strange, it’s true (not actually ironic, mind you, unless you are using it a la Alanis Morrisette) but we’ve been managing with them for a couple of years now. Here’s a handy link so you can read them for yourself:

www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

I personally won’t be reporting anything. Transactivist temper tantrums are very useful for the feminist cause. It demonstrates the exact thing we describe, only in real time.

Thanks for your assistance!

Mumsnet is actually one of the few websites that doesn’t have the ability to function as an echo chamber. You can’t block anyone, for starters

Yeah, don''t think that's what she meant.
As in, it's impossible to have a differing view on here.
As immediately showed by one of the first people to answer got no discussion, just "pathetic" as a response.
Plus first few pages, even though title clearly says trans inclusive feminists, loads of posters who clearly aren't start off the "conversation."
Nearly at 40 pages? Surprising that not like it was set up for a bunfight.

For those that need support, please know, not all feminists are right-wing gender extremists
This.
They might shout the loudest on here, but doesn't mean there's not plenty of others who aren't and just don't bother posting anymore.

Generally most of the women on here don't call for deletions. We like to leave stuff to stand.

It was your side who coined the phrase "no debate."

"Hang on a minute, aren't you worried by the sudden massive increase in girls with autism presenting as trans? And the fact that it seems to be subject to social contagion?" "No debate."

"Hang on, aren't you even a bit worried about someone who's been through male puberty competing in women's mixed martial arts/rugby/Aussie rules football?" "No debate."

"Hang on, don't you ever look at someone like Karen White and think it's obviously flat-out wrong to incarcerate White with vulnerable women prisoners?" "No debate."

Well, guess what. We've forced a debate.

Also - do you not realise that it's quite common for groups on the receiving end of slurs to appropriate those slurs to turn them back on the person being aggressive? That's there's a difference between a member of a group using a slur ironically about themselves, and someone outside that group doing so with the intention of being offensive?

That was to Jos, btw, not Quaagars.

I haven’t reported your post, Jos. You can stick to the guidelines or not, as you please, that is your choice.

I don’t want to shut you up, on the contrary I wish you would carry on posting. I remain hopeful that one day, someone will be able to post on here with a balanced solution to the tension between trans rights and women’s rights that doesn’t involve shitting on women. Today’s not that day, but then 2020 has been a disappointment all round. To be honest, I’d settee for someone who debates coherently and doesn’t end up name calling, that would be a marked improvement.

God, has it gone to the old fave of picking at usernames as an argument?
FFS lol
Someone has a username like a "well known usual suspect!" Must be them, or a sock!
Um, right

I'm fine Butterer. Trying to force my lazy a**e off the sofa to go and crack on with some work.

We're allowed to reclaim the word for ourselves. Just not to use it to describe others, as it's pejorative.

And I see you're still not acknowledging that telling people with dysphoria they have no place in this conversation is a bit insensitive.

@Quaagars

God, has it gone to the old fave of picking at usernames as an argument? FFS lol Someone has a username like a "well known usual suspect!" Must be them, or a sock! Um, right

I don’t think you’ve read the post properly 🤣

And the fact that it seems to be subject to social contagion?" "No debate."

Yes, because it comes across as "catch the trans"
New version of "catch the gay"
If you can't see the problem with that, fair enough.

@Quaagars

Mumsnet is actually one of the few websites that doesn’t have the ability to function as an echo chamber. You can’t block anyone, for starters

Yeah, don''t think that's what she meant.
As in, it's impossible to have a differing view on here.
As immediately showed by one of the first people to answer got no discussion, just "pathetic" as a response.
Plus first few pages, even though title clearly says trans inclusive feminists, loads of posters who clearly aren't start off the "conversation."
Nearly at 40 pages? Surprising that not like it was set up for a bunfight.

For those that need support, please know, not all feminists are right-wing gender extremists
This.
They might shout the loudest on here, but doesn't mean there's not plenty of others who aren't and just don't bother posting anymore.

I know what Jos MEANT. I was explaining that Jos doesn’t have a meaningful grasp on what the term refers to.

I love posts from the ‘other side’. They are incredibly useful.

The trans ally to material feminist pipeline begins when a trans activist tells a well meaning person to ‘go educate yourself’.

And PS, we’re the GENDER ABOLITIONISTS, the GENDER EXTREMISTS are the people who think gender is more important than sex. Y’know, like JJ.

all GC feminists are right wing, but not all feminist are the right wing GC type " , going by your post

What you've quoted doesn't say all GC people though - it says not all feminists, you've plopped GC in there

@Quaagars

And the fact that it seems to be subject to social contagion?" "No debate."

Yes, because it comes across as "catch the trans"
New version of "catch the gay"
If you can't see the problem with that, fair enough.

We LOVE DEBATE!

Look, even Stonewall estimates the prevalence of being trans at 1%.

So when you get a girls school where 3 girls in a class of 30 announce they're trans... then that pattern is repeated in other classes... and you've got way more more than that 1%, I think most people would start to get suspicious that there was perhaps something worrying going on.

And no, it's not at all like being gay. After all, being gay doesn't involve children being put on puberty blockers, and a path to cross-sex hormones and irreversible surgery.

If we took a totally laid back approach of "fine, you want to present according to the stereotypes associated with the opposite sex, no problem, crack on... but don't do anything irreversible till you're an adult" there would be no problem.