Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

There we go again

Tnswomen are at risk from other men so should be protected and women should be sacrificed

There's always a reason why women have to be the ones to lose out, isn't there?

Well the opinion of those running them is that trans women would be at risk in a male only hostel. I don't really know what there is to not understand about that.

Why would a male person be at risk in a hostel for male people. That's what I don't understand.

Actually given levels of Male on male violence, surely all males would benefit from being separated from other males , I mean why only make the exception for transwomen?

And if a male person would be at risk in a hostel for male people, why wouldn't female people be at risk from a male person in their hostel?

You're implying that male people are dangerous, yet you want to put male people in places which are designated for female people. I fail to see the logic in that.

Butterer
The important and the worthy don't want to upset offenders as they are harder to deal with than the victims.

@OldCrone

Well the opinion of those running them is that trans women would be at risk in a male only hostel. I don't really know what there is to not understand about that.

Why would a male person be at risk in a hostel for male people. That's what I don't understand.

Because all the evidence shows that trans women face sexual violence at the same rate as non trans women. So a trans woman in a male hostel would be just as at risk as if a non trans woman was housed there.

The evidence only shows that transwomen are at the same risk as women IF all women are prestitutes
And the evidence also shows that transwomen offend at the same rate as men

So yet again you prioritise transwomen over women

Why?

Because all the evidence shows that trans women face sexual violence at the same rate as non trans women. So a trans woman in a male hostel would be just as at risk as if a non trans woman was housed there.

And all the evidence shows that male people who identify as transgender commit violence at the same rate as male people who don't identify as transgender.

When will you start considering the women who don't want to be attacked?

So are all the gay men also put in female shelters as they too are at risk of if not sexual physical violence from other men?

This rather feels like jj thinks that Men are more important than women so men must be prioritised
Now where have we come across that attitude before ?

Because all the evidence shows that trans women face sexual violence at the same rate as non trans women. So a trans woman in a male hostel would be just as at risk as if a non trans woman was housed there.

Hop on over to Men's Health and let them know. I am sure they will be all over you.
We are women and are busy with women stuff

@midgebabe

The evidence only shows that transwomen are at the same risk as women IF all women are prestitutes And the evidence also shows that transwomen offend at the same rate as men

So yet again you prioritise transwomen over women

Why?

There is no evidence of trans rates of offending being the same as men. There's been no published work done looking at it at all that I'm aware of.

What we do have is decades of practice, and providers of VAWG services, 100s of them in the states representing thousands and thousands of VAWG professionals, have said trans inclusion has not placed women at risk or been a problem for the sector. It's pretty far out to deny the professional opinion and experience of almost the entire global VAWG sector than to admit that just perhaps you might be wrong about this.

I absolutely take on baord concerns that the presence of trans women may in some cases be traumatising and I support a sector well funded enough to make sure everyone can be accommodated. But in terms of actual risk of physical harm or abuse, then you've got no evidence and the professionals in the sector say you are wrong.

Still we have one answer to the original question
Feminism is expected to centre transwomen because women are expeced to put men first

Sorry jj you are misinformed

Transwomen commit offences at the male rate ( Swedish ? Study)
Transwomen are over represented in the sexual offender prisoner community (uk)

Must be gutting to realise you have been misled

@OldCrone

Because all the evidence shows that trans women face sexual violence at the same rate as non trans women. So a trans woman in a male hostel would be just as at risk as if a non trans woman was housed there.

And all the evidence shows that male people who identify as transgender commit violence at the same rate as male people who don't identify as transgender.

When will you start considering the women who don't want to be attacked?

Please point to a study that compared offending rates specifically between trans women and men that has found a current and statistically significant equivalence of rates of violent or sexual offending. (ie not one based on a sample of 4 crimes)

@midgebabe

This rather feels like jj thinks that Men are more important than women so men must be prioritised Now where have we come across that attitude before ?

Midge? Oh WOW. I think I left my giving a shit about men in my other coat pocket.

I could be wrong, but I thought this thread was wanting to hear from trans inclusive feminists. I assumed that meant female feminists who are happy to include men who identify as women in women's spaces.

I am not sure why some men thought that meant the OP was interested in their opinions.

I actually think here is a silly place to ask the question as most women here think feminism is about women even if they identify as men. This is trans inclusive to my mind but possibly not what the OP meant.

@dyslek

Its telling that women who are otherwise TWAW do conceed that men in womens sport is an issue. Id love to think its testiment to some underlying sympathy for women but I fear it is becasue this is the one aspect in all this that is going to piss off the general population of men.

The weirdest thing about this phenomenon is that the reasons women need separate sporting categories are EXACTLY THE SAME as the reasons women need separate spaces and services.

ie, that the female of the human species is on average smaller and less strong than her male counterpart, and female reproductive function effects our entire bodily systems in way that means these disadvantages cannot be mitigated by day, training harder (eg minimum body fat percentage is higher in women because we need the reserves to sustain a pregnancy. This function cannot be switched off when a woman chooses not to have children, because biology doesn’t give a shit about whether we actively want kids or not).

Almost everyone is viscerally horrified by Fallon Fox punching a biological female in an MMA fight, but somehow that inherent understanding of female vulnerability to male violence is denied when talk turns to prisons, secure psychiatric units and domestic violence shelters.

Is it just out of sight, out of mind? Or do people secretly think women in these institutions deserve less protection than women athletes?

What I don't understand is why the money goodwill etc is not being put into

Research relevant to the country into what issues trans people are facing
What they need to get away from abusive relationships. We know that men and women generally have different needs with this. What do trans women, trans men, non binary people need to get away? What sort of harms are they being exposed to? Do they generally have children they need to bring with etc?

Then actions to support those needs. Stonewall has oodles of cash. There are many charities. Work out what's needed to help and set it up fgs. There would be loads of backing.

But all the activism seems to be around other things. Self ID. Ensuring that anyone who IDs as a woman or girl gets into the stuff for women and girls. Very little talk about trans men or non binary people except as a debating 'gotcha'.

And if course the removal of words or the rewriting of their meaning.

If it had been about understanding and getting things set up and what have you, ok.

But this insistence that the terms woman, girl and even female don't mean what everyone knows they mean. That they are... Things that anyone can say they are. That sex stereotypes are the be all and end all. This incessant focus on sexuality and sex. The total refusal to try to understand let alone care about how this effects 50% of the population. The refusal to engage with how when it suits it's an identity but also can be used to draw attention to problems for women and girls >>. over there.

The whole thing is a regressive movement that focuses on men.

A rapist with a functional penis was incarcerated in a women's prison. At least one man has been admitted to a secure mental health ward for women.

But women who say wtf are baddies? No. I mean come off it.

The whole thing is an eye opening lesson in how while we thought we had got somewhere. When it comes down to it men need to have whatever they want, however ridiculous it is.

Combine this stuff with a lot else that's going on and I think we are seeing a massive worrying pushback. They've happened before but this is hardcore.

Surrogacy is awesome.
Getting fucked for money is like working in the supermarket.
Men killing women in situations where the men say, yeah but it was sexy! Is AOK
Rape prosecutions etc incredibly low
Austerity screwing women will be nothing compared to covid/ Brexit. We are expected to step up when required and get on with it stoicly when not.
And so on and so on.

And that's before you even take a look around the world.

Meanwhile there's whining about bogs and birth certificates and oh if a woman doesn't have heels, long fingernails, false eyelashes and a dress, no one will know she's female!

Men need to put their money where their mouths are with this and leave women out of it.

I think the links are on the fair play for women site

Wonder why the States are so different in their experience as ,at least in Scotland, surveys of service users of such services showed that the presence of males did cause problems. In our prisons there have been several publicised problems when males are put in female prisons. Prison staff and shelter staff have all expressed concerns and even our Minister in charge of prisons expressed his disquiet at housing female asylum seekers with men.