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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

999 replies

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 13/11/2020 07:40

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

OP posts:
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IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2 · 15/11/2020 07:50

... we are not feminine enough, male born people outshine us at living up to the gender, window dressing, stereotypes, therefore feminism is for them, excellent.

I'd just change one word:

we are not feminine enough, male born people outshine us at living up to the gender, window dressing, stereotypes, therefore femininity is for them, excellent.

They can have it.

CandyLeBonBon · 15/11/2020 08:15

If we set aside the distinction between natal women and transwomen, we can ask what you plan to do to combat sexual violence perpetrated by ‘women’ like Karen White

WTAF??

  1. Karen white isn't a woman. They are are a violent, male-bodied convincted sex offender.
  2. WOMEN have already vociferously protested about the dangers of male bodies in female spaces and have been patronised, ignored and silenced.

So really, your question should be 'what do MEN' plan to do to combat sexual violence perpetrated by (....) like Karen White?'

The answer?

NOTHING

HTH

IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2 · 15/11/2020 08:31

Because trans women might also need a space away from men.

It's almost like you get it.

midgebabe · 15/11/2020 08:33

@IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2

Because trans women might also need a space away from men.

It's almost like you get it.

But women's spaces are not set up for people who dislike men. They are for women. Definition of woman ( or feminist) is not anyone who dislikes men
IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2 · 15/11/2020 08:33

I think I left my giving a shit about men in my other coat pocket.

😂

IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2 · 15/11/2020 08:46

... ...men who aren’t a danger aren’t insulted by safeguarding procedures

Excellent point. So the ones who are insulted..

IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2 · 15/11/2020 08:52

Excellent post at 3.27 talkingto and nice summing up:

Nah, you’re just another man oppressing women. Same old, same old.

IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2 · 15/11/2020 08:58

This thread will soon reach its end.

But there will be others that men can make all about them...

midgebabe · 15/11/2020 09:24

Soon reach the end and so far the only reason we are given for twaw is that they suffer abuse and the hands of other men...as do all men really

Cocothefirst · 15/11/2020 09:25

@IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2

... ...men who aren’t a danger aren’t insulted by safeguarding procedures

Excellent point. So the ones who are insulted..

This, with bells on
Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/11/2020 09:28

We should summarise the "transinclusive feminist" arguments. I'm leaving out jj and Lord who are male. This thread is about why women support this.

testing987654321 · 15/11/2020 09:53

I don't believe there are any transwomen inclusive feminists here. So I shall give you an argument from one I know elsewhere.

She's fascinating because she prioritises trans feelings above non-trans feelings at all times for the following reason:

please try to remember, every time you advocate a blanket ban on transwomen in women's spaces, that you're actively damaging a group who are already subject to massively high levels of assault and abuse.

I can't work out why she is so keen to believe male persons are much harder done by than female ones, but she definitely thinks that.

midgebabe · 15/11/2020 10:02

So yes, it's thentranswomen face abuse so we should let them into women's spaces?

And what about the group of men called Gary? I bet they experience more violence that women, so I guess we need to allow all men called Gary into women's spaces?

midgebabe · 15/11/2020 10:02

I mean in general men do experience more violence so....

Cocothefirst · 15/11/2020 10:08

Male on male violence isn't a problem for women to solve.

At least in the UK, crimes against women are far more numerous (in numbers and as a proportion) than crimes against transwomen. We are beaten, raped and murdered.

We are entitled to safe spaces away from ALL men. That includes men who have good reason to be frightened of other men.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/11/2020 10:10

The trans inclusive feminist arguments on this thread against gender critical views:

No 1:

You don't understand their journey:

think it helps when you know someone who is trans, while trans people aren't supposed to enlighten us, understanding their journey certainly helps.

No 2: this never happens, your fears are exaggerated, there's no reason for people to be trans if not genuine:

RE the bathroom debate. I don't see this as predatory. a Man could just don a high vis jacket and a mop and mope around in the toilets if they wanted to harass us.

No 3: all sexual assault should be punished and there are already laws:

Anyone who assaults a woman in a bathroom should be punished and face the full extent of the law.

No 4: defining women too narrowly goes against feminist ideas of bodily autonomy:

rather the exclusion of trans women in our society seems to go against the right and expression of our bodies.

No 5: we have more important stuff to worry about:

Trans women make up 1 in 300 of women roughly. I'd rather focus our feminism on equal pay, representation in the board room. The right to access to abortion across Europe (Hi Poland).

No 6: woman can't be defined easily so male people can be women

I don't agree they are "appropriating" womanhood. There's no one way to be a woman.

No 7: what about transmen, do you want them in the women's loos, how would you tell they weren't actual men without genital inspections:

How do you know Transmen are trans? There is no genital inspector at the loos and I ain't living in a reality where there is one.

Your argument means that nontrans men could use the women's bathroom, how would we know?

No 8: some women who once claimed to be GC have denounced you now pal about with TRAs and think you are mean

I'll leave you with this. https://medium.com/@amydyess83/prodigal-butch-7f0d2e00f6933^

No 9: feminism isn't just for women it's for everyone

I believe feminism is not just for women, but simply to ensure equal rights for everyone.

No 10: sex is a spectrum

I see sex/gender as a continuum. I know most of society doesn't, but that is my pov. Therefore, it's possible to be at one end or the other (man or woman) but that there is a lot of room between the two polar opposites. IMO, most of us are somewhere between the two. I'm nearer the 'woman' end, some are nearer the middle.

No 11: it's not my business what they do so they should access female spaces if they want to

If someone respects my choices about my life, I don't want to interfere with their choices. If they wish to identify as a woman and respect me/my choices, I accept them in female spaces.

No 12: they just want to pee

they are likely in the women's toilet to pee, NOT to enforce their 'maleness' on women. CIS men do that everyday, with wolf whistles, sexism, sexual assault, rape et al. They don't need to wear a dress to do it.

No 13: woman has different meanings in different places

I've lived in 3 different cultures. Yes, 'woman' is different in each one.

No 14: your bioessential view of sex means women who have no uterus aren't women

Due to cancer, I have no female reproductive tissue of any type left. If being a woman is biology, I'm no longer a woman, I'm a husk

No 15: I see everyone as of equal value (with implication that others don't)

I don’t place women’s worth above men’s, I see them as being of equal value, but with the society we live in not reflecting that.

No 16: no one cares as much as FWR about this issue

In my experience, most feminists, including myself, don't think in nearly so much detail about trans women in comparison to those on the mumsnet feminism board.

No 17: you think they are all perverts

t's not about worrying if that trans woman is actually a pervert.

No 18: trans people are more oppressed than women so should be priority

In my opinion this is a really difficult issue with no easy solution. The need for women's rights shouldn't negate any other (far more marginalised) groups rights or ability to live their life integrated within society.

No 19: it's good enough for the Women's Institute

Transinclusive femininism from the WI is on the basis of equality. That good enough for you?

No 20: some oppression is due to perception as female which is about gender, not sex, so MTF trans people have a shared experience

You must have seen the viral post about a bloke who accidentaly took over his colleagues inbox and discovered how much harder it was for her to deal with annoying clients, who then became docile once he used his own name rather than hers.

Thats not sex-based, thats gender.

No 21: people have a right to identify how they want to and it's our role as feminists to always be there, and to make sure people know we accept them

Gonna leave this here bye.

No 22: why are you obsessed with chromosomes

separating bathrooms by chromosomes is ridiculous.

No 23: I personally have lovely trans friends

I am a lifelong feminist and I met a transgender woman a few years ago who has since become a fantastic friend.

No 24: TWAW! get over it!

As far as I am concerned transgender women are women, full stop. I think that is what so many here are refusing to admit.

No 25: I don't care about labels

damn about labels and see herself as gender fluid

No 26: other women are happy to accept TWAW

The support group I was in accepted t women as women.

No 27: my trans inclusive views aren't accepted here so you are the Patriarchy in action

Patriarchy at its finest.

I think I've captured them all, most arguments made are variations on the same themes.

Winesalot · 15/11/2020 10:13

What a surreal turn this thread took!

It became a real time display of the risks of including males (however they identify) needs in feminism. A movement for the liberation of women. ...

Instead, this thread become completely centred on male’s needs just like so many before it. It really doesn’t get much clearer.

KiposWonderbeasts · 15/11/2020 10:13

At one point I accepted TWAW, like many of the feminists here. I felt looking after another group of people oppressed by toxic masculinity was fair enough.

Then I saw how many in trans activism were acting in bad faith. Not wanting social acceptance, wanting to colonise, take women’s places on panels and political parties, take women’s scholarships, athletic awards, safe spaces. Insisting they could counsel rape victims or perform medical and personal care tasks for women who wanted female practitioners.

And that’s when I stopped. Yes, the trans people in my life are lovely - that’s why they are in my life. Ditto the men in my life. That doesn’t me we stop gatekeeping and safeguarding.

As for JJ and Lord - your opinion wasn’t sought.

bluebluezoo · 15/11/2020 10:14

please try to remember, every time you advocate a blanket ban on transwomen in women's spaces, that you're actively damaging a group who are already subject to massively high levels of assault and abuse

I saw a twitter post from a TW outlining the “massively high levels of assault and abuse”.

Basically:

Walking down the street having to worry about people shouting sexual comments.

Men trying to grab a feel

Walking at night having to be aware and fear groups of men. Fear of sexual assault. Carrying keys in fingers..

Having to cross the road to avoid people they fear might comment or abuse them.

Getting in taxis alone. Travelling on public transport at night.

Etc etc.

I felt like saying “welcome to my world”. Everything they fear is not because they are trans, it’s the difference between living in this world as a woman, when men don’t need to worry about these things.

testing987654321 · 15/11/2020 10:17

Great list Eresh.

midgebabe · 15/11/2020 10:19

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Cheers.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/11/2020 10:26

No worries, I thought I would round them up as this thread nears its end! It's possible we might yet get some amazing killer argument we haven't heard before, but I doubt it.

KiposWonderbeasts · 15/11/2020 10:54

Splendid summary, @Ereshkigalangcleg

Joswis · 15/11/2020 11:07

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SophocIestheFox · 15/11/2020 11:14

Jos, you’ve read the posting guidelines, right? You’re aware that the word t*rf isn’t allowed here, as it is generally recognised to be a misogynistic term of abuse?

As for being right wing, that’s just silly. And if that dooms a movement, then you better check that nobody right wing pollutes your movement either (Jennifer Pritzker,, Caitlin Jenner to name but two).

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