Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

I do think there does need to be more discussion on women's sports. Particularly trans-women who have gone through male puberty, however tarring all trans women as biologically superior to women is absurd

so therefore TW are not women in any and all circumstances

objectively boys are better at sport than women (and I do mean boys not men)
boysvswomen.com/#/

There's no one way to be a woman. yes there is. It's having female chromosomes and genitals. Let's not start with the anti science bullshit.

Perhaps connie means one in 300 men. Which poses a huge problem for women if true.

@Escapeplanning

RE the bathroom debate. I don't see this as predatory. a Man could just don a high vis jacket and a mop and mope around in the toilets if they wanted to harass us. Anyone who assaults a woman in a bathroom should be punished and face the full extent of the law.

Not again. Is this as good as it gets. Pathetic.

by pathetic you mean grounded in reality then sure link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

Please direct your bigotry elsewhere x

Equally couldn't any incidents in the mens room just be reported to the police?

@Cocothefirst

Trans women make up 1 in 300 of women roughly.

They're a subset of men, not women. HTH.

My apologies, do you go around examining every woman you meet by her gametes or bits?

@Whatwouldscullydo

Equally couldn't any incidents in the mens room just be reported to the police?

They should be?! no one should be perving or abusing anyone in a changing room. Transmen have a right to use the mens room,

Transmen do not present the same risk to men as they are biologically female. Equally they have the right to use the female toilets. In fact given the lack.of say sanitary bins in the mens loo they quite possibly do.

Males as a class however pose a significant risk to females.

The biggest danger to men actually is other males so perhaps males however they present should work on making their spaces more inclusive and safer for all males to use?

The womens loos are for biological females not anyone who may not be safe in with the men.

My apologies, do you go around examining every woman you meet by her gametes or bits?

Woman is a discrete biological category based on gametes. People with male gametes should take their bits and use the gents.

Conniethesensible can I ask you a question that's a bit more to the point.

Do you believe that prisoners with penises should be included in women's prisons?

That for me is one area where there are no fuzzy boundaries as changing rights for TW would directly impact on women.

Bigotry? Being unimpressed at your repetition of an inane and redundant diversion on a thread attempting to actually understand what is happening in feminist thought is bigotry? It is pathetic, your rote trivia is feeble and valueless and yet you tell me to leave a feminist board so you can reel it off unhindered.

You will have to do better than that here I'm afraid.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Transmen do not present the same risk to men as they are biologically female. Equally they have the right to use the female toilets. In fact given the lack.of say sanitary bins in the mens loo they quite possibly do.

Males as a class however pose a significant risk to females.

The biggest danger to men actually is other males so perhaps males however they present should work on making their spaces more inclusive and safer for all males to use?

The womens loos are for biological females not anyone who may not be safe in with the men.

I'm not going to be rude, but that is a slightly flawed argument. So you're saying that Transmen can use the women's bathroom.

How do you know Transmen are trans? There is no genital inspector at the loos and I ain't living in a reality where there is one.

Your argument means that nontrans men could use the women's bathroom, how would we know?

Also, you think it might be a little unnerving with transmen being in the women's bathroom? Because this actually happened in America and yeah

I sense that we're on danger of a derail here. Whilst the question of whether TWAW and whether they are a physical threat to us is interesting, it's not the subject of this thread. I'm interested in understanding how a theory of feminism that includes TW and women but not TM or men can work in real life situations. Connie has already mentioned abortion rights and equal pay. Can you please explain how these are womens rights issues? Why is abortion a feminist issue? What is the basis for pay discrimination towards women? Since being a woman has nothing to do with biology, please do not make any reference to female biology in your answers and also explain how these issues affect TW and why. Thanks.

@Cocothefirst

My apologies, do you go around examining every woman you meet by her gametes or bits?

Woman is a discrete biological category based on gametes. People with male gametes should take their bits and use the gents.

Right Coco and when do we use the electron microscope to verify this before needing to pee?

Anyone who assaults a woman in a bathroom should be punished and face the full extent of the law.

This would be great, but looking at the rape convictions and the abuse women get, their whole lives under scrutiny, when reporting a rape, what do you think realistically the chances are of men being punished by law for assaulting women in a bathroom? I find this standpoint so naive: women suffer assault and harrasment on a large scale, why make is easier for men to do this by making it socially acceptable for men to be in the womens bathroom?

I think what I find so disturbing about this argument is that it centers being nice to men instead of centering the protection of women.

I also don’t wish to see this thread focus on toilets even though it is an issue that probably deserves its own thread.

connie How do you feel about transwomen representing females on a board that has provision for females to overcome past sexist discrimination (the kind that is still happening that starts from birth including educational opportunities)? How does a transwoman represent a female perspective?

Would you think another solution is to keep the female to male ratio and also include a provision for trans voices (in proportion to the community they represent) in addition?

0.3% is 3 in 1000.

3 in 100 is 3%.

Unless numbers or operators are identifying differently nowadays?

Also identifying as non binary is pretty common amongst young people do assuming that all people who id as trans are tw is a pretty big leap.

Any comments on your numbers in the light of that?

I find it discomfiting that numbers are being used so thoughtlessly.

Not taking the time to say ok what does % mean
Not giving a passing thought to the different identities that are 'trans'- very out of line for someone who is arguing about inclusion.

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings

I sense that we're on danger of a derail here. Whilst the question of whether TWAW and whether they are a physical threat to us is interesting, it's not the subject of this thread. I'm interested in understanding how a theory of feminism that includes TW and women but not TM or men can work in real life situations. Connie has already mentioned abortion rights and equal pay. Can you please explain how these are womens rights issues? Why is abortion a feminist issue? What is the basis for pay discrimination towards women? Since being a woman has nothing to do with biology, please do not make any reference to female biology in your answers and also explain how these issues affect TW and why. Thanks.

trans rights and abortion rights are inextricably linked - both are about bodily autonomy & self-determination. If you disagree with me, then fine. I came here to have a civil discussion about why I believe transrights are included in feminism. The WI, women's aid and the UN seems to grasp this. However Mumsnet has not. But I guess it is what it is.

I'll leave you with this. medium.com/@amydyess83/prodigal-butch-7f0d2e00f693

RE the bathroom debate. I don't see this as predatory. a Man could just don a high vis jacket and a mop and mope around in the toilets if they wanted to harass us

I read that as 'mop' and presumed the reference was to cleaners. In this case, there need to be full and recognised protocols developed to prevent this, such as toilets and other facilites for ablution being closed when a man is present. In fact, this happens in most places. If there are problems then the problems need to be solved rather than the door for men being held open more widely.

@sanluca

Anyone who assaults a woman in a bathroom should be punished and face the full extent of the law.

This would be great, but looking at the rape convictions and the abuse women get, their whole lives under scrutiny, when reporting a rape, what do you think realistically the chances are of men being punished by law for assaulting women in a bathroom? I find this standpoint so naive: women suffer assault and harrasment on a large scale, why make is easier for men to do this by making it socially acceptable for men to be in the womens bathroom?

I think what I find so disturbing about this argument is that it centers being nice to men instead of centering the protection of women.

You're completely right. Rape convictions are at an all time low. This isn't ok one bit. We know that Trans-women do not pose a threat to women in bathrooms. link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

If we could instead fight for rape, assault, and domestic abuse convictions to not be quashed, that would be a good step. We as women would benifit far more putting our efforts into this.

@midgebabe

I don't think that it's necessary for transwomen rights ( by which I mean any additional rights we should give transwomen to overcome discrimination and enable them to participate fully in society) to actually impinge on women's rights

Firstly I think that there may need to be different additional rights ( and they may differ in different societies) . They really need to right to have both sex and gender recorded on medical records to ensure correct medical treatment.

Then Women have the right to same sex space at times. Transwomen don't want that right, but they would feel more included in society if they didn't have to use Male spaces, but they don't have to use women's spaces, they could have their own. Ditto sport.

TW almost all want access to female spaces in order to validate their assertion that they are women. There are different types of Males who transition, teen boys who are very effeminate, probably gay. With drugs and surgery they often “pass”, and older men who are APG ( read up on trans widows). The latter sometimes want access to women’s spaces as a power trip. There are genuine males with dysphoria who know they are males but feel more at peace with themselves when presenting as females. Rose of Dawn is an example here.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

I get the impression from the posts here that it's reconciled by denial, minimising, gullibly buying into outlandish diversions and assumptions of bigotry. The total effect being that impingement is considered normal and is completely internalised.

Sad.

There is only one way to be a women and it starts with being of the female sex.