Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

I could be wrong, but I thought this thread was wanting to hear from trans inclusive feminists. I assumed that meant female feminists who are happy to include men who identify as women in women's spaces.

Perhaps unsurprisingly the vast majority of people supporting the ‘trans inclusive feminist’ position are male.

Male people telling female people to budge up because male wants are more important than female needs.

Meet the Patricia-archy. It’s just like the Patriarchy only now 50% of the board members are wearing lipstick and dangly earrings.

This might be the sweedishnstufy

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

This isn't a peer reviewed study, but the basic numbers are easily verified and don't help your case

medium.com/@evastanford/transwomen-sexual-offenders-a-closer-look-6c507d9e2414

@334bu

Wonder why the States are so different in their experience as ,at least in Scotland, surveys of service users of such services showed that the presence of males did cause problems. In our prisons there have been several publicised problems when males are put in female prisons. Prison staff and shelter staff have all expressed concerns and even our Minister in charge of prisons expressed his disquiet at housing female asylum seekers with men.

I suspect some of the difference is that women are too intimidated to speak up

So a trans woman in a male hostel would be just as at risk as if a non trans woman was housed there.

Only if you pretend human beings aren’t mammals and that there are no physical differences between the sexes.

And that’s a fucking MASSIVE pretend.

Is a non trans woman an Male or female ?

@midgebabe

Sorry jj you are misinformed

Transwomen commit offences at the male rate ( Swedish ? Study)
Transwomen are over represented in the sexual offender prisoner community (uk)

Must be gutting to realise you have been misled

The Swedish stidy was not intended to compare rate of offending between men and trans women, and when it came to violent crimes had a sample of just four crimes which it did not specify were committed by trans women or trans men.

Are trans women over represented, or are they massively under represented in the penal system overall so those serving long sentences appear to be over represented? How many trans women have murdered a child, or been convicted of terrorism, or organised crime? How many trans serial killers have there been in the UK? How many trans women who were tried as trans women have been convicted of murdering a woman in the last seven years - just one according to transcrime as a joint enterprise with her male partner?
Karen White, according again to trans crime, is the only trans women (who identified as a trans women at conviction) convicted of rape in the last four years.

And I still don't see why we should include transwomen in feminism
Like , we don't worry about disability or race or religion or sexuality beyond whet it intersects with feminism. And maleness can never intersect with femaleness

@334bu

Wonder why the States are so different in their experience as ,at least in Scotland, surveys of service users of such services showed that the presence of males did cause problems. In our prisons there have been several publicised problems when males are put in female prisons. Prison staff and shelter staff have all expressed concerns and even our Minister in charge of prisons expressed his disquiet at housing female asylum seekers with men.

Got a link to those surveys of service users in Scotland?

" There is no evidence of trans rates of offending being the same as men. There's been no published work done looking at it at all that I'm aware of"

Well as both men and transwomen are male and given the numbers of transgender males in prisons I think we can safely extrapolate that they are the same.
So transwomen have a male pattern of criminality and pose the same risk to women as other males.

Unless you have any evidence to the contrary?

Given how hard it is to get a rape convictions and how very few trans people there are, it is not surprising tha5 Karen is the only one to have stood trial for rape

The onus on you is to prove that transwomen commit offences in line with female offending patterns since you have no other reason to bundle transwomen and women together

Which you can't

And you reject evidence to the contrary because it doesn't suit. 4 isn't enough, is 5 ? 500? 5 billion?

@334bu

" There is no evidence of trans rates of offending being the same as men. There's been no published work done looking at it at all that I'm aware of"

Well as both men and transwomen are male and given the numbers of transgender males in prisons I think we can safely extrapolate that they are the same.
So transwomen have a male pattern of criminality and pose the same risk to women as other males.

Unless you have any evidence to the contrary?

No, you cant safely extrapolate they are the same based on no evidence, anymore than you could safely say gay men represent the same sexual threat to women as men overall with no evidence. According to many on here half of trans women are gay men.

The Swedish stidy was not intended to compare rate of offending between men and trans women, and when it came to violent crimes had a sample of just four crimes which it did not specify were committed by trans women or trans men.

Fucking hell! You FINALLY acknowledged transmen, but only in at attempt to smokescreen transwomen’s crime statistics?

Throwing female people under the bus yet again, regardless of their gender identity? Transactivism really is all about the rights of male people, isn’t it?

Transmen are useful tools when TRAs want a sympathetic-seeming complainant for a court battle over school changing rooms, but transmen are shit out of luck when it comes to prisons and refuges aren’t they?

Have a look at this link jj.

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/

There are 126 female sex offenders in prison and at least 46 male prisoners who identify as women who are in prison for sex offences. And just to add to the confusion, some of the 126 women might be transwomen with a GRC.

According to this, transwomen seem much more likely than women to commit sex offences, and it's also probable that they're more likely than men to commit sex offences.

According to many on here half of trans women are gay men.

HSTS are significantly less than 50% of transwomen. More like 25%.

I presume that’s what you mean by ‘gay men’?

All this... Nonsense.

JJ you want our words. Cool.

Here's the page on Google about DRC.

It would be great if you could educate us on how to describe these issues

www.google.com/search?q=drc+women%27s+camp&oq=drc+women%27s+cam&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j33i160l2.10315j0j7&client=ms-android-vf-gb-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

You see what you are fucking with here is not trivial. It's not about toilets FFS. It's about having language to even talk about us. The cunty ones. And the particular things that we are subject to due to that.

Let's start you off. 'Women led thousands of people in demonstrations in four cities across the Democratic Republic of the Congo on Thursday, demanding justice for historic murders and rapes committed in the east of the country.' and 'Conflict drives global rise in sexual violence against women. Study identifies DRC, India and South Sudan among countries where women are at greatest risk of attack'.

So let's hear this in newspeak please.

According to many on here half of trans women are gay men.

Interesting. From what I have seen, it appears the most prominent transwomen I have read are ''lesbians'

@BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero

According to many on here half of trans women are gay men.

HSTS are significantly less than 50% of transwomen. More like 25%.

I presume that’s what you mean by ‘gay men’?

Got any evidence for that or is it just another guess?

No, you cant safely extrapolate they are the same based on no evidence,

Well then, it’s lucky that feminists are campaigning for biological sex and gender reassignment status to be accurately recorded in crime and conviction statistics! Because believe me, we really do want accurate, publicly accessible, statistical evidence.

Same with suicide statistics, paediatric transitioner numbers, detransitioner rates etc.

For some unknown reason, transactivists have been really resistant to accurate record keeping for decades now.

Got any evidence for that or is it just another guess?

Source: 4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

JJ really interested in your advice on how media outlets and charities should reword items like the above to be more inclusive.

Were the ISIS markets that bought and sold women and girls exclusionary? How should the media have reported it? What's the best descriptor... Human beings over the age of puberty and in possession of vaginas? Something like that? I mean it's why they were taken after all. Should the reporting refer to these people in terms of their penetrable orifice count? What's your thinking on that.

There are 126 female sex offenders in prison and at least 46 male prisoners who identify as women who are in prison for sex offences. And just to add to the confusion, some of the 126 women might be transwomen with a GRC.

That is 126/36000000 ( 0.00035%) compared to 46/350000(0.013%) if we assume that 1% of all males in UK are transgender. The female rate could of course be even lower if some of those sex offenders in the female estate are actually male.

How many trans women who were tried as trans women

Why is this detail relevant? Do you or do you not believe in innate gender identity? You've waxed lyrical about your own at length. Are you suggesting the others aren't really trans?

[quote BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero]Got any evidence for that or is it just another guess?

Source: 4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/[/quote]
I can't find that quote on that page and it seems to be in a different font to the text on there. I was kind of hoping for a peer reviewed study, even a decent survey, not just speculation.

For some unknown reason, transactivists have been really resistant to accurate record keeping for decades now.

I find that really confusing and a bit suspicious to be honest. You would think, that they would welcome any studies and such so people learn more about transpeople and make sure they are getting the best treatment options and such for them. I mean, if you cared at ALL about transpeople, you would want the very best understanding and evidence based treatment, and to make sure everyone was getting the help for their own specific situation, as obviously not all transpeople are the same. And accurate stats, to of course, track crime patterns. Though it appears for committing crimes, transwmen must be lumped in with women, and they are only transwomen when they are the victims. Makes not much sense to me.

I cannot imagine the fudging and campaigning against studies into the group from any other group at all. More understanding is always a positive thing for me tbh.

5

6Ereshkigalangcleg

How many trans women who were tried as trans women

Why is this detail relevant? Do you or do you not believe in innate gender identity? You've waxed lyrical about your own at length. Are you suggesting the others aren't really trans?"

Classic jj.
Transwomen are no threat to women but if they are they're not real transwomen.
Transwomen don't sexually harass / assault etc. women but if they do they didn't do it in a female only place so it doesn't count