Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

I can't find that quote on that page and it seems to be in a different font to the text on there. I was kind of hoping for a peer reviewed study, even a decent survey, not just speculation.

My iPhone is clearly just set to a different display font to whatever device you are using.

Use the ‘search on page’ function for ‘75’ and your device will take you straight to it.

Otherwise it’s in the section titled ‘What do we know about Autogynephilic Gender Dysphoria?’ Third paragraph down.

The authors are:

Michael Bailey is Professor of Psychology at Northwestern University. His book The Man Who Would Be Queen provides a readable scientific account of two kinds of gender dysphoria among natal males, and is available as a free download here.

Ray Blanchard received his A.B. in psychology from the University of Pennsylvania in 1967 and his Ph.D. from the University of Illinois in 1973. He was the psychologist in the Adult Gender Identity Clinic of Toronto’s Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (CAMH) from 1980–1995 and the Head of CAMH’s Clinical Sexology Services from 1995–2010.

So I have absolutely no doubt that you know who they are and that they both have lots of professional experience in this field.

I was kind of hoping for a peer reviewed study, even a decent survey,

This seems to suggest that you realise that there are indeed methodological problems with the robustness of survey data, contradicting your disingenuous accusation earlier that pointing that out meant trans victims were lying.

I also cannot believe that 900 posts in we have not had any 'trans inclusive feminist' arguing their case (besides 'you are mean'). It really would help, and I am not being goady when I say that. There has to be something that makes it all click into place that I am missing. I mean, I used to be very TWAW but this was before I had read into the topic and I hadn't thought beyond 'be nice' really. I fail to see how anyone can understand whats going on, and be for it, while being feminist.

Unless 'not thinking about it properly' is the reason for it in the first place? But given so much info is out there now, and the matter is publicized (when it was meant to be under the radar, TRAs admit this) so much, surely one could only not know/think about the issues if one purposely ignored them. And purposely ignoring obvious negative consequences for women, would be an odd thing for a feminist to do.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

How many trans women who were tried as trans women

Why is this detail relevant? Do you or do you not believe in innate gender identity? You've waxed lyrical about your own at length. Are you suggesting the others aren't really trans?

I'd also like to know why jj thinks this detail is relevant.

jj are you suggesting that some men might pretend to be trans, and people in the prison service might actually believe that these fake transwomen are really trans?

JJ come on.

Tell me how to rewrite those stories/ headlines.

You believe in self ID? So it would apply globally and in all situations, yes? Or is it something else you are advocating for?

Vulva this is the sort of thing that makes it all seem... Odd.

For statistics etc on trans people to be gathered, and to ensure trans people get the correct treatment when they present in a and e. To understand the situation fully. Then it's a good idea to collect.

Sex
Gender identity

(Or similar wording/ options).

The experiences and difficulties of different groups need to be understood.

Do transwoman and transmen experience the same levels of DV? Street harassment? Poverty? What is the picture for non binary people and does it differ depending on if they are male or female? What are the biggest concerns? Where is there a problem. School? On the street? At work? Etc etc

I cannot understand why it's so important not to do that. While at the same time, stats about trans people are used by activists quite a lot. It's contradictory.

I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

Yes you are. You’re missing or misunderstanding:

That there is widespread acceptance of gender identity as a clinical concept.

That gender identity is an internal sense of what sex you are or should be.

That it’s likely that some people are born with and into a complex mix of genetic, biological, environmental and cultural factors that predispose them to develop a cross sex gender identity.

That biological factor likely includes brains exposed to unusual levels of cross sex hormones during certain stages of foetal development.

That a gender identity that conflicts with physical sex can lead to extreme discomfort with one’s physical sex characteristics.

That this is not the same as gender non conforming behaviour.

That gender identity seems permanent at least in adults.

That transition is the least worst solution for some people.

That some transsexual people can improve their social, emotional and occupational functioning through transition and achieve their potential as people and contribute to society.

That as gender identity is permanent it is a more humane and compassionate response as a society to accept trans men and women as their acquired sex in as many domains as possible including legally and socially (with realistic limits of course; you can’t completely/ literally biologically/ reproductively change sex).

HTH.

That hasn't answered any of my questions.

Why does the above mean that we had have to hand over our language?

Why does it mean that any man (trans or not) should be able to use women's services?

How is this supposed to be written, in this new world.

'Women led thousands of people in demonstrations in four cities across the Democratic Republic of the Congo on Thursday, demanding justice for historic murders and rapes committed in the east of the country.' and 'Conflict drives global rise in sexual violence against women. Study identifies DRC, India and South Sudan among countries where women are at greatest risk of attack'.

Why is the obvious solution around stats-

Sex
Gender

Which will serve everyone, not acceptable?

'That gender identity seems permanent at least in adults.'

Who have they asked? How is internal gender identity defined?

Why does it supercede sex?

This whole thing has been described and framed by people who by definition have a strong internal sense of... Sex? Gender?

Most people are just people getting by as best they can in a society that has certain norms for male/ female.

Where did this 'fact' that we all have this internal sense of gender come from?

And what does handing over our language mean for eg women in DRC.

That there is widespread acceptance of gender identity as a clinical concept.

As a "clinical concept" it is gender dysphoria, a psychological unease with ones sexed body. It doesn't have any other clinical relevance.

That as gender identity is permanent it is a more humane and compassionate response as a society to accept trans men and women as their acquired sex in as many domains as possible including legally and socially (with realistic limits of course; you can’t completely/ literally biologically/ reproductively change sex).

They don't have an "acquired sex" unless they have a GRC, a legal fiction, and it's not sex, it's gender. Acceptance is fine, but depends on where those "realistic limits" are and that women's rights are protected.

"That as gender identity is permanent it is a more humane and compassionate response as a society to accept trans men and women as their acquired sex in as many domains as possible including legally and socially (with realistic limits of course; you can’t completely/ literally biologically/ reproductively change sex)."

Given the number of people who say they are gender fluid I might take issue with "gender identity is permanent" However, I don't think there is anybody on this board who would not support someone's right to live their life as they wish as long as it does not harm others. Accepting them living their life in their chosen gender will be fine in many domains but not where sex matters. As you quite rightly acknowledge you can't change sex and this unfortunately means that they must be excluded from certain domains. This is not done to be cruel but to ensure that other people can live their lives in safety and with privacy and dignity.
In a civilised society it should not be impossible to come to some kind of arrangements to allow trans people to live their life without trampling over the rights of other vulnerable groups. However, acknowledging that there is a conflict of rights must be the starting point.

That there is widespread acceptance of gender identity as a clinical concept.

That gender identity is an internal sense of what sex you are or should be.

Do you have any evidence to back up these bizarre statements?

Same with knife crime amongst black males and instances like the Rotherham sex scandal and NYE sexual assaults.

Of course, these don't cancel out the crimes perpetrated by men

That’s because they ARE crimes perpetrated by MEN, you ninny.

And here we have the problem I outlined earlier. The fact that by grouping all types of men into one homogeneous group you can then blame Eton schoolboys for knife crime committed by black males in economically deprived areas - because they’re both ‘men’.

We could look at it another way...

If we set aside the distinction between natal women and transwomen, we can ask what you plan to do to combat sexual violence perpetrated by ‘women’ like Karen White.

The law already protects people who present in a way that is not socially standard for their sex.

Which is good. No one should have issues with getting education, housing, schooling etc.

The current activism goes way past that though.

On this thread we have been told that the words woman (and presumably'girl) have always meant presentation according to prevailing norms for a sex.

This is rubbish though. Obviously.

And the things that apparently show you are a woman are so reductive. If we're not Barbie we're not a woman.

And this is being taken seriously.

If ever there was a sign that male supremacy is alive and kicking, that's it right there.

@334bu

5

6Ereshkigalangcleg

How many trans women who were tried as trans women

Why is this detail relevant? Do you or do you not believe in innate gender identity? You've waxed lyrical about your own at length. Are you suggesting the others aren't really trans?"

Classic jj.
Transwomen are no threat to women but if they are they're not real transwomen.
Transwomen don't sexually harass / assault etc. women but if they do they didn't do it in a female only place so it doesn't count

It's relevant because we were discussing access to refuge's and there's no way an occasional crossdresser would be admitted and rightly so.

@LordLancington

Same with knife crime amongst black males and instances like the Rotherham sex scandal and NYE sexual assaults.

Of course, these don't cancel out the crimes perpetrated by men

That’s because they ARE crimes perpetrated by MEN, you ninny.

And here we have the problem I outlined earlier. The fact that by grouping all types of men into one homogeneous group you can then blame Eton schoolboys for knife crime committed by black males in economically deprived areas - because they’re both ‘men’.

We could look at it another way...

If we set aside the distinction between natal women and transwomen, we can ask what you plan to do to combat sexual violence perpetrated by ‘women’ like Karen White.

How can you blame boys in Windsor for crimes that took place elsewhere?

It’s about as logical as blaming female people for male sexual violence.

Your analogies are utter pants.

Wow it took a long time to think of a response to that, lord.

And your response I think is to still, fundamentally, not get that to women and girls. Men are men irrespective of sub type. Your sub types are about how men perceive other men. You just fundamentally don't get it.

And then you say it's up to women to sort out the massive risk to incarcerated women of having intact male rapists locked in with them.....

I find that take depressing. Hello ladies! We changed the rules while you weren't looking. We didn't ask any of you. If there's problems it's up to you to sort then out.

Lovely.

And the things that apparently show you are a woman are so reductive. If we're not Barbie we're not a woman.

I'd actually got the opposite impression from jj. That most of us are gender conforming, and the only women who are considered to be gender nonconforming are those who are regularly mistaken for men and suffer abuse for it.

I wouldn't trust 'Eton schoolboys' any more or less than I would trust any other men tbh, when it comes to sexual violence.

Another indicator that some people don't know what they're talking about and have zero idea about male on female sex crime.

It's relevant because we were discussing access to refuge's and there's no way an occasional crossdresser would be admitted and rightly so.

Are all those 'trans' prisoners really trans then jj?

It's relevant because we were discussing access to refuge's and there's no way an occasional crossdresser would be admitted and rightly so.

What’s the actual difference between an occasional cross dresser and a self ID transwomen who has had no medical intervention and rarely makes any effort at ‘presenting female’?

Because as far as I can tell it’s only the name on the utility bills.

How can you blame boys in Windsor for crimes that took place elsewhere?

Presumably in the same way that you can blame all men for the violence perpetrated by other men....elsewhere.

wouldn't trust 'Eton schoolboys' any more or less than I would trust any other men tbh, when it comes to sexual violence.

Just as well we’re discussing knife crime then. The police definitely need to start searching Eton schoolboys for knives. While they’re at it, they should do a few sting operations in Bank and make sure those deadly investment bankers aren’t packing rambos in their briefcases. And not to forget the lawyers in Colemore Row.

They’re all men at the end of the day.

'It's relevant because we were discussing access to refuge's and there's no way an occasional crossdresser would be admitted and rightly so.'

Why not?

Plenty of women wear no makeup, trackies, etc.

It makes no sense. Why should they not? I get done up for work. Make up, skirt. Other times I don't bother. I genuinely feel that I'm dressing up when I go all the feminine stuff.

So I wouldn't be let in because I only dress up like a proper woman sometimes?

That's what I'm getting.

With all this gender stuff. You use the facilities for your gender expression. What does that mean in real life?

And how does this work across the board. We (women) have just been told it's up to us to stop a Karen White happening again... !!

This applies all over the world I assume? Including war zones etc. Any man who says I'm a woman gets put with the women. If it goes bad (if!!!) then it's up to the women to solve it?

Can you even hear yourself

I’m only agreeing with feminists. Nuance isn’t required. We can just use the two main categories of ‘men’ and ‘women’. We don’t need to look into the differences between gangsters and investment bankers, natal women and trans women.

Presumably in the same way that you can blame all men for the violence perpetrated by other men....elsewhere.

No one on here is blaming ALL men for the violence perpetrated by some men. We spent absolutely ages painstakingly explaining this to you last night. It’s gotten boring now.

Here’s a handy link so you can reread last night’s posts.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4077998-Transinclusive-feminists-please-help-me-understand?pg=14

Stop taking generalised risk assessment so personally, it’s weird...

...men who aren’t a danger aren’t insulted by safeguarding procedures.