Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

999 replies

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 13/11/2020 07:40

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
OldCrone · 15/11/2020 02:18

It's relevant because we were discussing access to refuge's and there's no way an occasional crossdresser would be admitted and rightly so.

You're right. Because entry is decided according to the sex of the person. And most people over the age of about 5 know that when a man puts on a dress he doesn't become a woman. They also know that people can't change sex.

But you seem to be implying that if men are a bit more persistent in their crossdressing that they should be considered to be women. Where do you draw the line?

LordLancington · 15/11/2020 02:27

No one on here is blaming ALL men for the violence perpetrated by some men. We spent absolutely ages painstakingly explaining this to you last night. It’s gotten boring now.

It’s not all about you, Betty, I’m afraid.

I’ve read posts on here so many times saying things like ‘when will they do something about male violence’. Who is ‘they’? Does that include the investment bankers who aren’t stabbing other men? Does that include five year old males?

NiceGerbil · 15/11/2020 02:34

Seriously lord?

We're not discussing knife crime. We're discussing sex crime.

Women and girls are at much more risk of sex offences than knife crime.

We're not worried about being stabbed in the changing rooms...

Are you genuinely so utterly incapable of seeing anything from another pov? (Rhetorical)

BlackWaveComing · 15/11/2020 02:37

Sure it includes 5 year old males. I teach 5 year old males and some, like some of the girls, have immense difficulty with anger. Helping them learn to regulate and express anger appropriately is my job; their job is to listen and learn. Both boys and girls, but it's the boys who will grow, on average, larger and stronger than the average girl. So I am extra conscious of getting it in with the boys from a young age.

All men have a role to play in reducing VAWG whether as a dad, a brother, a friend or an educator.

LordLancington · 15/11/2020 02:50

We're not discussing knife crime. We're discussing sex crime.

Actually, we were discussing male violence (but you changed the goalposts because it’s easier to argue that all demographics of men might commit sexual violence than knife crime).

LordLancington · 15/11/2020 02:51

But don’t forget all males are potential rapists. Even the five year old ones and the ones who’ve had their bits chopped off.

NiceGerbil · 15/11/2020 02:54

I find this so depressing.

The posts here from some show an absolute lack of interest in the struggles of women now, and through history .

Because they simply do not care.

And that's men for you.

I have seen time and time again through my life how when it comes down to it. Men don't give a fuck. Even the 'nice ones'.

You say well. Shit. Rape as a weapon of war. Girls being married well young. The pain and death that results. Women imprisoned for miscarrying. UK. Rape of wife legal until the early 90s. Still legal in many countries.

That it's just bog standard to be sexually assaulted.

I said to DH the other day about a holiday. Yes we should definitely go there but not with the girls the age they are. He said yeah you're right.

I think the upshot of this conversation is.

Women globally should STFU about anything that happens to them due to their sex.

Trans women are at a high risk of assault much more than gay men, disabled men. Women. Boys. Girls.

Instead of doing anything about that directly. The answer is to say to men that they can go anywhere which is for women/ girls. But gay men can't. Nor disabled men etc.

When women/ girls are attacked it's up to them to decide how to minimise that risk. Even if they're locked in prison with an intact male rapist. Obviously the rapist needs to be in the women's prison. Why aren't women protecting themselves properly?

Etc etc

Yes you've made your point.

The lives and safety of women and girls are worth shit.

So. Same old. Nothing changes.

I'm not done yet though.

NiceGerbil · 15/11/2020 02:57

All men are potential rapists yes.

I have zero issues with saying that.

The insistence that we're talking about knife crime when. That's not what is the worry at all. Is. Boring tbh.

What do you want out of this lord? I mean apart from a fun argument with some women.

What are your beliefs.

TWAW end of?

LordLancington · 15/11/2020 03:01

Because they simply do not care.

And that's men for you.

I have seen time and time again through my life how when it comes down to it. Men don't give a fuck. Even the 'nice ones'.

See, it doesn’t take long for the real sentiment to come out.

I do actually care about women. I don’t agree with all of them, and many of these tend to be ‘feminists’ (who most women don’t agree with either when surveyed).

How can you straightfacedly fight against female stereotypes while simultaneously spouting broad generalisations and stereotypes about men? 🤷🏻‍♂️

OldCrone · 15/11/2020 03:03

This thread isn't about male violence Lord, it's about why some people think transwomen should be included in the category of women.

Did you think you'd posted on a different thread?

LordLancington · 15/11/2020 03:05

Type ‘man rescued by woman’ into Google and read the many many stories of selfless men who’ve risked their lives to save strangers who happen to female. Guess they didn’t care.

LordLancington · 15/11/2020 03:08

All men are potential rapists yes.

I have zero issues with saying that.

Does rape not require a penis?

NiceGerbil · 15/11/2020 03:12

You have not answered at all really.

Do you believe TWAW?

NiceGerbil · 15/11/2020 03:22

See the semantics, lurkers.

Not engaging with the point at all.

But saying OHO some men have lost their cocks in industrial accidents etc.

It's just so. Dull and angering at the same time.

Why are some men so insecure? It takes a special type of insecure to decide to go and tell women off on this site.

Ok so it's not fair of women around the world to say, this thing is shit. Because it might make some men feel unfairly told off.

Are you less sensitive about people >> over there?

If so. Do you think the removal of words to describe the female sex as a group will help or hinder when it comes to.. pointing out that girls have this done here and women have that done there...

Peter Sutcliffe was in the news a lot today and I was told he murdered X people. That really makes a difference doesn't it? He killed WOMEN. But. That's not an ok thing to say, really.

It's so depressing dull angering.

NiceGerbil · 15/11/2020 03:25

The fact that women were worried about men generally when Sutcliffe was active

Is a sign that women are all sexist cunts

I think that's the right answer?

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 15/11/2020 03:27

Just have to go back to the blatant dishonesty of this “conundrum”:

So who would you rather share a refuge with? A chaotic substance misusing women whose been kicked out of other provision for assaulting residents, or a quiet trans women just trying to get on with her life and heal?

It’s not actually a conundrum: I’d rather share a refuge with the woman, because my boundary is that I wouldn’t want to share with a male, full stop - but FFS, it’s so telling what jj left out.

Let’s look at the scenarios he chose not to propose:

Who would you rather share a refuge with? A chaotic substance misusing woman who’s been kicked out of other provision for assaulting other residents, or a chaotic substance misusing biologically male trans person [with all that maleness entails in terms of physical strength and very probably male genitalia] who’s been kicked out of other provision for assaulting other residents?

Or

Who would you rather share a refuge with? A quiet woman just trying to get on with her life and heal, or a quiet biologically male trans person [proviso re maleness as above] just trying to get on with [...] life and heal?

Or

Who would you rather share a refuge with? A quiet woman just trying to get on with her life and heal, or a chaotic substance misusing biologically male trans person [proviso re maleness as above] who’s been kicked out of other provision for assaulting other residents?

Because all those scenarios are just as possible as the one that he mooted, in the world he advocates for.

(Let’s not forget that this hypothetical biologically male trans person may well be sexually attracted to women and (unlike lesbians and bi women) has a male body. May well not even try to “pass”; may get a buzz out of flaunting [...] maleness in the most crude way. Or may just try and take over socially, change the dynamic of the group so it’s somehow all about them. This stuff is already happening.)

Anyway. I choose to share with the woman, every single time.

There’s one thing that shines out clear and true out of everything jj writes, and that’s his complete lack of empathy for women. Lack of understanding, lack of interest in even trying to understand our perspective, lack of compassion, lack of insight into what it actually is to be born and live as a female in a patriarchal, misogynist world, lack of respect, lack of liking.

Over and over again he is determined he is to make sure that the voice of MALE PEOPLE is not only heard but centred, right here, on a feminist board. That the concerns of MALE PEOPLE are centred by women, women who still have such a long way to go in our own fight.

Yes, we hear you, jj. We KNOW we don’t matter to you. We KNOW we’re just service humans to you. You are familiar to us. We have all had plenty of experience of other men who have treated us exactly like you do. That’s how men [as a class] have been treating women for millennia, and some - too many - men still do. Which is why feminism was needed and came about in the first place.

The glorious irony (or whatever it is) of you thinking that you’re here as the voice of the oppressed, standing up in the name of truth and justice and in defence of the vulnerable.

Nah, you’re just another man oppressing women. Same old, same old.

NiceGerbil · 15/11/2020 03:32

It really is

It's so dull

Yes honey of course you're very important and clever :)

NiceGerbil · 15/11/2020 03:34

The important thing to remember is that they don't give a fuck.

It's all about them.

Standard standard standard male behaviour.

Butterer · 15/11/2020 03:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 15/11/2020 03:38

Well, things had moved on before I refreshed, hadn’t they.

What kind of man sees a board called “Feminism Chat” and thinks to himself “oh, I really don’t like Feminists, they’re all stupid, bitter man haters - so I’ll go and hang out with them, and tell them all how wrong and stupid they are!”

I wonder?

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 15/11/2020 03:39

@NiceGerbil

The important thing to remember is that they don't give a fuck.

It's all about them.

Standard standard standard male behaviour.

Yup
Butterer · 15/11/2020 04:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LordLancington · 15/11/2020 04:06

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 15/11/2020 04:42

It’s not all about you, Betty, I’m afraid.

Well, obviously. I didn’t expect it would be all about me.

But then I’m female, and have such a well developed inner Beryl that I actually took the time to not just provide a source on request but to go on to direct a male person to the section and exact paragraph where the information was located, only for them to completely ignore me. I even explained why my screenshot looked different to the same page on their device.

Anyway, propping up male people who can’t be arsed to read a linked source properly or who constantly come back with irrelevant straw men arguments and contradict themselves every third sentence gets old fast, so I went off and used my time more productively - researching why a Canadian rape crisis centre has suddenly closed with no real explanation, leaving survivors without support.

Sadly, it looks like the reason is because they did too much dick pandering and the social justice monster ate it’s own tail. Shit, isn’t it?

LordLancington · 15/11/2020 05:43

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.