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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Canada - Judge delays double mastectomy

472 replies

Dimpsey · 10/11/2020 18:30

Saw this on twitter and thought I would share: vancouversun.com/news/b-c-supreme-court-judge-orders-surgeon-to-deny-trans-teens-mastectomy-wish?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1604974077

Mother of the child asking the surgeons to provide evidence of the protocol they have followed to demonstrate that the operation is in the child's best interests.

OP posts:
SophocIestheFox · 14/11/2020 09:42

Exactly, notbad, and scully.

Winesalot · 14/11/2020 09:59

Sadly, I feel that these posts will continue to be ignored and minimised. It is a surreal world where experts with decades of experience are ignored because .... well... they are the wrong type of professionals obviously. What would a group of whistleblowers know? Even the current safeguarding lead pointing out discrepancies in the process (and future law suit potential) is being ignored.

Whatwouldscullydo · 14/11/2020 10:09

Uts strange because ultimately it would benefit trans people wouldn't it?

Lead to a more tailored approach for individuals.

Lead to information to base decisions on

Waiting times are frequently raised as an issue. Well these could be reduced if there was a better screening process or even a criteria that could be agreed upon, and clinics weren't full of people who ultimately wouldn't need to be there.

I also think its important to realise that with every thing there is a wait. People wait years for surgeries and appointments etc for many many conditions

Trans health care isnt singled out in that sense. This is a systematic problem where often the short term solution is provided for long term problems . In fact im.sure I've seen on here before that there have been drs surgeries who are that busy its literally 1 appointment 1 problem.

Looking at the whole situation is a good thing. Other wise you are just treating symptoms as they arise rather than the condition.

MaudTheInvincible · 14/11/2020 11:23

Has there ever been another example of a group of activists who campaign so loudly for no further research or development of treatment options? Who state that without exception only one single limited clinical pathway is acceptable? Who do not want properly structured careful follow-up?

Whatwouldscullydo · 14/11/2020 12:08

Has there ever been another example of a group of activists who campaign so loudly fornofurther research or development of treatment options? Who state that without exception only one single limited clinical pathway is acceptable? Who do not want properly structured careful follow-up?

Bizzarre considering the very new issues with surgical procedures they are now coming across where this affirmative approach with the use of blockers and hormones has resulted in the non development of reproductive organs so there is limited material to work with in order to make a neo vagina.

some versions of IVF require the eggs to have matured , same with sperm.

All this is new and requires looking into id have thought because at the moment its experimental. How can decisions be made without following up or allowing discussion.

And I'm happy to be corrected on this as I'm.only vaguely remembering pieces so anyone more knowledgeable please fill in the gaps

Breast binding has often been linked as being similar to the process if breast ironing. Now I vaguely remember reading something about the act of pounding/flattening the breast tissue potentially causing parts of the tissue ti kinda break off/migrate which in the event of say developing breast cancer, well its not all in one place is it so would make it harder to treat. Or even find. Does say the binding of breasts have similar potential in disrupting the development or potentially causing parts if the internal tissue to detach or migrate .

We focus alot in things like abnormal formation of the rib cage and the difficulty in breathing and exercising whilst wearing one. And the solution is to " do it properly " , given the fact some cancers can be exacerbated by hormones , pregnancy fir instance and cause them to grow faster, do binders potentially cause problems with locating and treating of breast cancer?

Again things surely that need investigating to ensure proper care and screening is received.

Thats not a call to immediately ban binders in a forms in all situations for everyone ever. But surely just a realistic medical situation that needs to be looked at through unbiased eyes and followed up on without being shut down due to being considered bigoted?

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 14/11/2020 12:26

@MaudTheInvincible

Has there ever been another example of a group of activists who campaign so loudly for no further research or development of treatment options? Who state that without exception only one single limited clinical pathway is acceptable? Who do not want properly structured careful follow-up?
This is what really weirded me out.

As regular posters know my ‘middle child’ my stepdaughter) identified as a boy for a year between the ages of 13 and 14. This coincided with (and with hindsight) was in part a reaction to my youngest child’s battle with rare, cancer-like life threatening immune disorder.

So for a while our family simultaneously juggled the worlds of paediatric gender identity services and and support and paediatric oncology services and support.

The differences, especially between associated charitable orgs and parent led advocacy groups is absolutely jarring.

As an example, paediatric oncology bend over backwards to try and give (even infant) girls future fertility options, whereas it’s more or less handwaved away as inconsequential by paediatric gender services.

‘a harmless pause’ my arse.

Winesalot · 14/11/2020 12:33

But surely just a realistic medical situation that needs to be looked at through unbiased eyes and followed up on without being shut down due to being considered bigoted?

Absolutely.

My deleted post also asked MBD just who they would listen to from the trans community with a message about the improvements needed for current treatment of females in this age group.

Whatwouldscullydo · 14/11/2020 12:36

I dont see why it matters who said it.

If something is true its true regardless of who's mouth it comes out of

I dont like Donald trump but I'm.not going to start arguing the sky is green becuase he said it was blue.

That makes it political surely ? Amd healthcare should be based on what's best for the patients regardless of who they are or what they have done etc prisoners to
presidents should all receive the best care possible

Winesalot · 14/11/2020 13:14

It seems to matter to some, which is why I asked.

It does not matter to me who says it as I, as will most regulars, will evaluate it as per the evidence value rather than who says it. That is why it seems so illogical to discount the opinion of people who have decades of experience in medically treating exactly this issue. They have no personal motivation either as these people are not personally invested.

Whatwouldscullydo · 14/11/2020 13:32

In the mean time, its a big worry, the potential harm being done whilst waiting for that "acceptable " person to come along and re frame it all as their idea and for things to finally be properly looked into.

I mean of thats the case so be it, none of us need or want credit or recognition for saying what should be obvious but its frustrating and many women/parents are on MN caught up in it all with their children and their friends scared abiut the route thats going to be taken.

As i said earlier we are all on the same side really. We all want good healthcare thats about doing the best thing for the patients.

gardenbird48 · 14/11/2020 13:33

@MaudTheInvincible

Has there ever been another example of a group of activists who campaign so loudly for no further research or development of treatment options? Who state that without exception only one single limited clinical pathway is acceptable? Who do not want properly structured careful follow-up?
This!!!

Activists actually shutting down research into treatment for transgender people.

Activists actively trying to prevent access to mental health treatment for children that are gender questioning/potentially distressed for other reasons.

Activists actively campaigning to remove the parents’ voice in the care of their children.

An article about shutting down research is one of the first things I picked up on this whole debate - at the time I thought it sounded very odd - now I find it hugely sinister.
Charities purporting to help children are participating in the movement to prevent research and follow up and are actually advocating for fully self diagnosed access to hormone treatment that is known to damage health (puberty blockers) and surgery.

And they are the good guys??

Winesalot · 14/11/2020 15:00

As i said earlier we are all on the same side really. We all want good healthcare thats about doing the best thing for the patients. yes.

The end game is exactly this.

Winesalot · 14/11/2020 15:22

And they are the good guys??

Well it has been pointed out on several threads that apparently feminists who don’t include males are not pulling their weight at all and have no involvement in fighting for abortions in Poland. It is ridiculous of course.

But it is obvious that of course, they are the good guys.

Winesalot · 15/11/2020 18:54

I just wanted to post this link here on the latest dramatic decreases in Swedish referrals and the massive turnaround that happened because the scientific community argued that more studies were needed before lowering the surgery age.

This article credits the government taking a balanced approach all the way from how transition was discussed in the media to recognition and treatment of underlying mental health. Including promotion of detransitioners stories as legitimate regret stories.

genderreport.ca/the-swedish-u-turn-on-gender-transitioning/

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 15/11/2020 21:26

Wow, Wines! This is big, big stuff!

Did you see this in the comments?

——————————————————-

Dr. A. Hutchinson and Dr. M. Midgen are experienced clinicians who have both worked in the NHS Gender Identity Development Service for children and young people (GIDS).

The exponential rise in adolescent natal females (teenage girls) presenting at gender identity services over the last few years has been well documented. This phenomenon was noted first amongst professionals working in the field and latterly has been picked up by the press and the public. Back in November 2019, for example, Newsnight and radio 4 covered this issue. During the programme “Going back: The people reversing their gender transition” (File on Four, Radio 4, Tuesday 26/11/19) Dr. Elizabeth Van Horn (Consultant Psychiatrist in The Gender Identity Clinic, The Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust), in response to the question about this explosion in referrals of natal females presenting at the Gender Identity Development Service calmly remarked we ‘do not know’ what might be driving this rise.

This gave a surprising impression of a lack of curiosity, insight and experience on the part of current clinicians. We suggest, in contrast, that many others working in this field have been asking themselves this very question for several years. They have generated hypotheses to account for this noteworthy and concerning phenomenon and refute the claim that it arises solely out of reduced stigma and increased access to services.

We posit that there are multiple, interweaving factors bearing down on girls and young women that have collided at this particular time causing a distress seemingly related to gender and their sex. These factors comprise both the external world (i.e. the social, political and cultural sphere) and the internal (i.e. the emotional, psychological and subjective). The external and internal interact and feed each other [1].

It is notable that even speaking about these observable, and clinically relevant, factors are seen by some as evidence of a form of anti-trans rhetoric. This deeply disturbs the clinicians whose professional lives are dedicated to understanding the source and meaning of human distress. It is from this place that we speak.

In spite of apparent social gains for minority groups, our present-day culture obsesses in highly gendered ways over the signifiers of what it means to be a boy and a girl, a man and a woman. Girls are under ever more pressure to capitulate to the ‘pinkification’ and ‘pornification’ of girlhood. Girls who eschew these signifiers, who are uncomfortable or dissent from this demand, can often be lonely and isolated in their apparent idiosyncrasy. Sexual feelings awaken amidst sexual harassment and press reports of misogynist hate crimes. Dawning same-sex attraction can occur against a backdrop of homophobia; as well as a dearth of everyday, run-of-the-mill lesbian visibility. This is particularly relevant for girls drawn to an aesthetic which is viewed as ‘masculine’ (and therefore wrongly ascribed as ‘male’), but could be understood and owned as a butch lesbian identity if only these girls had access to it. Linked to this is the absence of critical feminist thought of the most elementary nature in the school curriculum. Failing that, even basic sex parity in the classroom would impact early on the sorts of messages both girls and boys internalise about their capacities and the expectations others have on them.

Changes to the body during puberty can bring about much more turmoil than is readily acknowledged. It is particularly disconcerting and shame-inducing for girls who begin menarche early, and have to navigate the whole mess and embarrassment of sanitary protection in primary school toilet provision often ill-equipped for this. There is embarrassment inherent in growing breasts, of these being noticed and pejoratively commented on and, worse, groped.
Crucially, it is important to acknowledge, that girls and young women have long recruited their bodies as ways of expressing misery and self-hatred. Bodies become the site onto which they can project their perceived failure to live up to society’s expectations of them and also their internal, psychic pain. Psychic pain that arises out of the manifold implications of being a suffering human being: trauma, abuse, neglect, bullying, social ostracism, bereavement to name but a few. Also, for some, the fear of leaving childhood behind, the terror of female adulthood, is overwhelming.

It is not unreasonable to hypothesise that developing gender dysphoria, and alighting on a trans identity as the way of understanding, can, in some instances, be the solution (cure) to the ‘problem’ of being born female. It could be the ultimate act of self-harm. A form of self-harm hardly noticeable to many because it is so aligned with the disavowed but ever present attack on gender non-conforming women that exists throughout society.

We cannot ignore the role of the internet in this; whether cyber bullying, competitive instagram, exposure to pornography, sexualisation or the associated phenomenon of a sort of social and collective influencing. We know that there is a parallel world of on-line engagement where children and young people are engaging globally out of sight of any mediating influence or alternative explanation for their distress.

Whatever influencing factors, both exogenous / social and endogenous / psychological, there might be these are all happening within the wider context of the decimation of local child and adolescent mental health services (CAMHS) over the last decade. We are seeing a generation of young people emerge who have been poorly served by local specialist provision: a phenomenon recognised and documented here.

In the clinical setting we have become familiar with narratives, especially in younger children, resting almost entirely on the most superficial of signifiers: toys, activities, hair, clothes, a certain aesthetic upon which effectively the (self) diagnosis of trans is made, and a social role transition affected. Unfortunately these tropes are compounded and perpetuated by some “diversity” trainings delivered in schools.

We have also witnessed a coincidence of autistic spectrum conditions and gendered/ sexed distress. The lens of gender can seem very apt for these girls retrospectively to understand their difficulties: always feeling weird, not fitting in, struggling to understand social interactions and cues, bullied often, feeling themselves to be outside the norm. Additionally girls struggle physically with puberty; as a change from the familiar, often unpredictable, body sprouting and changing, unwanted thoughts and feelings.

The distress of their body seems to accrue over time for these young females; it was not primary. Socially transitioning might even have an iatrogenic effect on gender dysphoria as the body becomes a shameful secret that needs to be disavowed – we see embodied disconnection and alienation snowball. We are now hearing first hand from detransitioners that, had they not found this relatively novel way of understanding their difficulties (inevitably with the assistance of the internet) through the explanation of ‘trans’, the natural history would suggest they would find themselves living as lesbians. Furthermore, how they looked, lived and loved needed no apology.

In summary, in the clinic we witness this toxic collision of factors: a world telling these children they are ‘wrong’; they are not doing girlhood (or boyhood) correctly. They realise their nascent sexual desire is going to be problematic; they struggle in puberty because it is uncomfortable, weird and unpredictable (particularly heightened if they happen to be on the autistic spectrum).
In all of our good-willed attempts to be empathetic, to share the pain of these very young people, we adults must not lose sight of the risk of joining too closely with them. Their pain is real, their way of making sense of it may be helpful, but it may not. Adults and professionals have a duty to step back from the feelings, whether their own or the young people’s, in order to consider what is fundamentally in young people’s interests. Listening can occur at many levels. We can hear and respond to distress without agreeing with the other person’s explanation of why they are experiencing it.

The significant treatment decisions being made are adult decisions. It is simply not possible for a child or adolescent to conceptualise a loss of fertility or sexual pleasure before they have developed their adult body.
We are dealing with strongly held beliefs and associated feelings. On the one hand is a novel belief that we are all born with an innate ‘gender identity’ but sometimes, tragically, for some trans people they are born into a sexed body that is misaligned from that gender identity. From this perspective, the problem is a tragedy of birth, as with other genetic or physical difficulties. From this position it would seem and feel as though the only sane and morally congruent thing to do is to speed up access to medical treatments. After all, if this is a medical/physical problem then, of course, a medical/physical solution will be most apt. Why would you want to hold a person back from that? However, even if this were true, there would still be many questions about the long-term trade offs of pre and post puberty ‘gender affirmation’, and different regimens and operations. Ethics would still demand high quality research into the size of harms and benefits of major medical interventions on a healthy body for a psychological indication.

On the other hand is the belief that no one has a gender identity that is discrete and separate from the rest of their identity/personality. The body we are born into is, therefore, just that. People with gender dysphoria usually exist within a healthy body, regardless of how they feel about it. From this position, the gender identity, however conceptualised, must have been formed through the developmental processes that the young person has undergone. If we believe this, then the only sane and morally congruent way to alleviate the distress is to explore their past and ongoing developmental processes in order to help them make sense of, and influence, their distressing feelings. We would consider the use of therapy to help alleviate this distress as virtually mandatory, as this is what we usually apply to distress. From this position. it would be unethical to intervene at the level of the physical body at all, as this is not the problematic feature.

When we frame the conflict in this area as being related to differences in, albeit deeply held, adult beliefs then we can also allow room from which we can compassionately relate to those we disagree with. We can see that (most) actors in this story are trying to do the best for themselves, their children or their patients, even if we think that their approach is not the right one.
Currently there is no way to distinguish amongst these children and young people, other than subjective accounts emerging within a meta culture in which even suggesting that social contexts, let alone trauma and co-morbidity, can lead to gender dysphoria is seen as transphobic.

As a final thought, the continual collapse of ’trans and gender non conforming children’ into one seamless category is highly problematic and moreover is, most likely, in part responsible for the self-perpetuating inflation of the identification of so-called’ trans kids’. Gender non conforming children are just that – not conforming with rigid social norms. In the past they might, indeed, have been labelled “tomboys” or “cissy boys” but they were not taken to professionals for “affirmation” of being wrongly “assigned” a sex at birth. Perhaps if they were left alone, and actively supported to be non conforming, this would inevitably dismantle some of the basis upon which ’trans’ is superimposed onto the presentation.

We have wondered whether the early attempts to intervene in respect of gender dysphoric children have been problematic in themselves. For example, an attempt to encourage children to play with ‘gender appropriate’ toys (or more accurately ‘sex-appropriate’: prescribed ways females and males are expected to behave) and peers, and engage in similar behaviours and activities. These might have left children feeling alienated from themselves and internalising shame / disapproval. Inadvertently, the message was exactly a ‘trans’ message – you’re not really a boy if you enjoy the things girls seemingly (and are expected to) enjoy, and vice versa.

Sadly, the present criteria in the DSM (The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) can only exacerbate the problem:

A1: A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that he or she is the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).
A2: In boys…a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; or in girls…a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical female clothing.
A3: A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play.
A4: A strong preference for the toys, games, or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender.
A5: A strong preference for playmates of the other gender.
A6: In boys…a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls…a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities.
A7: A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy.
A8: A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender.

A hypothesis is that if A2 to A6 (inclusive) is where these children start, they could look to A1 as a solution to these, and then A7 and A8 follow inevitably.
If these early presenters – and more importantly their parents, caregivers and educators – had been vigorously instructed in some basic gender / sex deconstruction, it’s worth wondering whether “trans” as a solution to childhood GD would have gained such traction over the years. Have we seen an historic iatrogenesis?

17th February 2020
Notes:
[1]: It is worth noting that we are distinguishing between sex and gender, and the distress therein. ‘Gender’ means the socially imposed expectations demanded of a girl by dint of her ‘sex’, meaning being born female. These two discrete yet over-determinedly related categories of experience interact much as the factors stated above.

Winesalot · 15/11/2020 22:18

It is Betty! It seems Sweden maybe ahead of everyone and has been searching for answers. I like the push back by the Swedish government, that it is negligent to leave mental health issues untreated. That it is not dehumanising to look deeper and treat these issues.

Frankly, if the Swedish can pull together studies into the whys, and we in the UK can too, maybe the tide around the world will look to multiple layered and tailored approaches that all patients deserve.

ArabellaScott · 15/11/2020 22:25

Holy blinking moly. That could have been lifted right out of a FWR thread. Maybe needs its own thread, Wines?

puuuuuuuuullllllllll

ArabellaScott · 15/11/2020 22:25

'It is not unreasonable to hypothesise that developing gender dysphoria, and alighting on a trans identity as the way of understanding, can, in some instances, be the solution (cure) to the ‘problem’ of being born female. It could be the ultimate act of self-harm. A form of self-harm hardly noticeable to many because it is so aligned with the disavowed but ever present attack on gender non-conforming women that exists throughout society.'

Shock
TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 15/11/2020 23:52

@ArabellaScott

Holy blinking moly. That could have been lifted right out of a FWR thread. Maybe needs its own thread, Wines?

puuuuuuuuullllllllll

Agreed! Amazing.

And what a stark difference between that clear, well written piece, grounded in the real world and in compassion and humanity, and the kind of dense, impenetrable, totally divorced from material reality and the human experience type of texts produced by “queer theorist” academics.

I know which I think shows actual wisdom and intelligence.

SophocIestheFox · 16/11/2020 06:23

That’s an incredible piece.

LauraBassi · 16/11/2020 06:34

Having a double mastectomy purely on cosmetic grounds should be banned with also creating a penis from the forearm.

It’s butchery. And any surgeon who excepts money for this should be stuck off.

Whatwouldscullydo · 16/11/2020 06:53

It’s butchery. And any surgeon who excepts money for this should be stuck off

Theres a dr in America i believe who has multiple pending law suits regarding phalloplasty complications.

On one hand fully informed , mentally stable ,consenting adults should be able to do as they wish within what should be tight regulations.

On the other, it's very hard to believe that anyone of sound mind, would choose a surgery with extremely high failure and complication rates where the best case scenario is that they may be able to wee standing up after a few months if it heals .

Do mentally stable people have healthy body parts removed and what does that achieve?

FannyCann · 16/11/2020 06:56

That comment: a brilliant explanation.
It needs printing off and sending to schools everywhere as well as MPs and anyone else involved in this industry.

Whatwouldscullydo · 16/11/2020 07:15

That comment: a brilliant explanation.
It needs printing off and sending to schools everywhere as well as MPs and anyone else involved in this industry

I said this on another thread but I'll say it again. As well as all these heavily gendered external pressures/expectations and te exposure early on to porn and the secual harassment etc I think we also need to look at ourselves as parents.

I'm not saying we are to blame or anything like that, but MN is full of threads strangely obsessed with arbitrary age cut offs, and what the child should and shouldn't wear at what age and how little girls should be running around with no top on as pre puberty they are exactly like boys and a bikini/tankini top is inappropriate etc

What message are we sending our very young dds if even when they absolutely need bras or crop tops theres suddenly so many restrictions or opinions on the style/type of bra.

I mean anyone would think they'd been told to take their dd to the local ann summers for a fitting, MN parents so freaked out with moulding and whether it constitutes padding and you may as well be purchasing a wonder bra if you contemplate a moulded angel bra from.m&s...

Maybe we as parents need to get over some of these hang ups and realise that our dds feel how they feel and the need what they need regardless of age and shouldn't be made to be uncomfortable to prove some point about what is "appropriate "

I hope that makes sense. I know its hard we want to protect our children etc but I think we can sometimes end up achieving the same result from the opposite side of the arguments

PurpleHoodie · 16/11/2020 09:00

Has anyone seen the arms of otherwise healthy young women after their skin/muscle have been cut off to use to form fake penises??

Utterly heartbreaking.

I actually have tears at the back of my eyes just typing this.

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