Canada - Judge delays double mastectomy

[Dimpsey]

Saw this on twitter and thought I would share: vancouversun.com/news/b-c-supreme-court-judge-orders-surgeon-to-deny-trans-teens-mastectomy-wish?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1604974077

Mother of the child asking the surgeons to provide evidence of the protocol they have followed to demonstrate that the operation is in the child's best interests.

The Komodo dragons are the monitors silently reading and waiting to strike. Not the posters, we are all here out in the open and can easily be ignored.

She isn’t suing the NHS though, is she? I thought it was a judicial review?

Exactly, paleblue.

An important difference.

A year or so on T might make some changes, but nothing that takes you completely out of the bell curve of female development like a mastectomy would.

Keira had at least four years on testosterone before the mastectomy. Stop minimising.

The person I know that is progressing their ‘medical transition’ to non binary has been on ‘T’ since July and is already seeing measurable differences including facial hair. Soon she will start experiencing irreversible voice deepening, and facial changes like Keira did - on the phone Keira will always be read as male.

I am not being ‘glib’ - which bit of my summary is incorrect (evidence please) including the point about maturity for decision-making.
You have made a number of comments on this thread where you describe detransitioners in terms of outliers and being in minimal numbers so forgive me for using the term ‘dismissing them out of hand’ but you are hardly acknowledging the seriousness of the fact they exist. Their existence in ever increasing numbers totally undermines the diagnostic criteria used by the medical practitioners you trust so implicitly.

Re ‘tiny bit of sympathy’ - I just asked if you have a tiny bit of sympathy for Keira’s situation - from the age of 14 she was facilitated towards life changing procedures that turned out to be unnecessary by people who should have known better. Is that ok in your opinion? What evidence do you have that she ‘gamed the system’? Would you think it is imperative that the ‘system’ be improved so that it can’t be ‘gamed’ by any other determined teen?
Do you think that the 20% should be prioritised over the 80%? Or not?

I’m not sure why you think it acceptable to tell me to ‘get stuffed’ - I have carefully read your responses and I’m not sure I’ve read the same thing that you think you wrote.

The person I know that is progressing their ‘medical transition’ to non binary has been on ‘T’ since July and is already seeing measurable differences including facial hair. Soon she will start experiencing irreversible voice deepening, and facial changes like Keira did

This sits with the timeline in videos that I have watched of teens starting on T And watching their progressive changes. It all starts within months and is irreversible from then.

I am surprised to see the reference to ‘a year or so on T might make some changes’. That does not fit the videos from several transitioners I have watched.

Trans lives (& detrans lives) are so few and far between

You don’t have any experience of secondary education in 2020 Britain, do you?

You don’t have any experience of secondary education in 2020 Britain, do you?

I think it would be rather astounding to get the statistics from each school. Considering among my daughters friends 4 out of 6 are plus I know of another 2 or 3 she is friendly with. And she doesn’t know many of the girls in her year at all. And that doesn’t include any other year in her school.

And in talking to parents at other local schools, those numbers do not seem unusual.

There's a lot of bigots commenting on that Guardian article from Feb 2017. No wonder they had to close comments. Far too many people biggotly empathising with a detransitioner, the biggoty bigots.

Wow. You'd think it was a thread from Mumsnet!

Just reposting the guardian article to save people searching upthread for it.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/feb/03/experience-i-regret-transitioning

If there aren’t that many trans teenagers, then every time one of them decides to detransition it must be statistically significant. If they’re so “few and far between”, then a forum with tens to hundreds becomes huge.

The Tavistock advised at one point recently they had 267 children on puberty blockers. How many of those would need to express regret in the future before it becomes a concerning number?

We know the 1% number is manipulated bullshit. What’s the real number? No one knows because no one has checked. And no one external has been allowed to study it.

For reference, the Bristol Heart Scandal was a scandal because 30 day mortality was twice elsewhere, around 4.3%. It was estimated that around 35 children would have otherwise survived if treated elsewhere.

There doesn’t need to be a high number of children mistreated for it to be a scandal.

• No acceptable way of defining the condition
• No objective test
• No way of distinguishing between those who might need hormone treatment and those who don’t
• Same blanket approach to all children, regardless of underlying and co-existing morbidities
• No adequate consent of children for treatment
• No public acknowledgement of the incontrovertible doctor-induced harm from the treatment
• No adequate follow up and documentation of children when they reach adulthood
• No knowledge of long term implications of decade-long cross sex hormone treatment on prepubertal bodies
• Recently emerged - after forced correction - that surgery doesn’t improve mental health
• Evidence published this year that adults who were on puberty blockers were more likely to have been hospitalised for a suicide attempt
• Evidence that mental health worsens following hormone treatment and certainly doesn’t improve
• An emerging population of adults who went through this as children whose experiences are dismissed as being false, fake, statistically insignificant and self-inflicted
• A complete inability of anyone actively involved in promoting the affirmative pathway - doctors, therapists, activists - of answering any challenging questions about this process without raising more questions.

• A blind failure of regulatory authorities to acknowledge or address concerns.

Overall, I am 100% confident that this moment in time in our medical history will have its own Wikipedia page in the future.

@NotBadConsidering

If there aren’t that many trans teenagers, then every time one of them decides to detransition it must be statistically significant. If they’re so “few and far between”, then a forum with tens to hundreds becomes huge.

The Tavistock advised at one point recently they had 267 children on puberty blockers. How many of those would need to express regret in the future before it becomes a concerning number?

We know the 1% number is manipulated bullshit. What’s the real number? No one knows because no one has checked. And no one external has been allowed to study it.

For reference, the Bristol Heart Scandal was a scandal because 30 day mortality was twice elsewhere, around 4.3%. It was estimated that around 35 children would have otherwise survived if treated elsewhere.

There doesn’t need to be a high number of children mistreated for it to be a scandal.

• No acceptable way of defining the condition
• No objective test
• No way of distinguishing between those who might need hormone treatment and those who don’t
• Same blanket approach to all children, regardless of underlying and co-existing morbidities
• No adequate consent of children for treatment
• No public acknowledgement of the incontrovertible doctor-induced harm from the treatment
• No adequate follow up and documentation of children when they reach adulthood
• No knowledge of long term implications of decade-long cross sex hormone treatment on prepubertal bodies
• Recently emerged - after forced correction - that surgery doesn’t improve mental health
• Evidence published this year that adults who were on puberty blockers were more likely to have been hospitalised for a suicide attempt
• Evidence that mental health worsens following hormone treatment and certainly doesn’t improve
• An emerging population of adults who went through this as children whose experiences are dismissed as being false, fake, statistically insignificant and self-inflicted
• A complete inability of anyone actively involved in promoting the affirmative pathway - doctors, therapists, activists - of answering any challenging questions about this process without raising more questions.

• A blind failure of regulatory authorities to acknowledge or address concerns.

Overall, I am 100% confident that this moment in time in our medical history will have its own Wikipedia page in the future.

And MBD, on this very thread, implying that the clinic themselves are encouraging and promoting medical transition (and appears unaware of how that looks).

I'm referring to her telling the GIDS what she knew they wanted to hear.

I think it would be rather astounding to get the statistics from each school. Considering among my daughters friends 4 out of 6 are plus I know of another 2 or 3 she is friendly with. And she doesn’t know many of the girls in her year at all. And that doesn’t include any other year in her school

My stepdaughter says there are at least transboys in year 10 in her school, plus assorted NBs.

There are so many in our nearest girls grammar that the staff have completely stopped using the word ‘girls’ when addressing pupils

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/altrincham-grammar-school-transgender-ban-14135480

It’s got the word ‘girls’ in the school name!

Of course, many of these children will eventually desist, as my stepdaughter has, but it does beg the question of how will we ever know how many gender dysphoric adolescents there were in the 2010s/2020s?
Between the ones who social transition only and the ones who obtain testosterone and mastectomy through the private sector (or via the black market), I’m not sure how useful the GIDS numbers are going to be.

We need a schools census type thing.

@NotBadConsidering

If there aren’t that many trans teenagers, then every time one of them decides to detransition it must be statistically significant. If they’re so “few and far between”, then a forum with tens to hundreds becomes huge.

The Tavistock advised at one point recently they had 267 children on puberty blockers. How many of those would need to express regret in the future before it becomes a concerning number?

We know the 1% number is manipulated bullshit. What’s the real number? No one knows because no one has checked. And no one external has been allowed to study it.

For reference, the Bristol Heart Scandal was a scandal because 30 day mortality was twice elsewhere, around 4.3%. It was estimated that around 35 children would have otherwise survived if treated elsewhere.

There doesn’t need to be a high number of children mistreated for it to be a scandal.

• No acceptable way of defining the condition
• No objective test
• No way of distinguishing between those who might need hormone treatment and those who don’t
• Same blanket approach to all children, regardless of underlying and co-existing morbidities
• No adequate consent of children for treatment
• No public acknowledgement of the incontrovertible doctor-induced harm from the treatment
• No adequate follow up and documentation of children when they reach adulthood
• No knowledge of long term implications of decade-long cross sex hormone treatment on prepubertal bodies
• Recently emerged - after forced correction - that surgery doesn’t improve mental health
• Evidence published this year that adults who were on puberty blockers were more likely to have been hospitalised for a suicide attempt
• Evidence that mental health worsens following hormone treatment and certainly doesn’t improve
• An emerging population of adults who went through this as children whose experiences are dismissed as being false, fake, statistically insignificant and self-inflicted
• A complete inability of anyone actively involved in promoting the affirmative pathway - doctors, therapists, activists - of answering any challenging questions about this process without raising more questions.

• A blind failure of regulatory authorities to acknowledge or address concerns.

Overall, I am 100% confident that this moment in time in our medical history will have its own Wikipedia page in the future.

And crikey knows how many children whose name and sex markers were changed on school registers without the knowledge of their parents (having been ‘trained’ to do exactly this by Mermaids, Gires, Allsorts et al)

Yes and add to my list:

• An unknown number of children who were/are victims of abuse for whom child safety and safeguarding guidelines were ignored/are being ignored.

There are so many in our nearest girls grammar that the staff have completely stopped using the word ‘girls’ when addressing pupils

From that article:
When asked by the Manchester Evening News what prompted the move, a spokesperson said: "It was in response to training, and the school’s understanding of the challenges facing students who are questioning their gender identity, or do not identify as girls."

I wonder who 'trained' them?

One parent, who asked not to be named, said they were left stunned by the policy change.

“When I opened the letter I wasn’t sure if it was a joke or not”, they said.

“We are not even sure how many girls there are having issues with their gender, it could be there’s none.

Hmmm, I see I got a deletion overnight.

Normally, that wouldn’t bother me, but in this case it was a post where I was responding to this:

I’m not saying nothing could stand improvement, but your loaded language ("ruined") makes it clear that your only solution is to scrap our healthcare

I do not in any way support a solution that “scraps healthcare” for anyone, and fully support evidence based, clinically appropriate care covering all treatment modalities. I also posted further down to retract my use of the word “ruined” which I appreciate might be inflammatory.

We need a schools census type thing.

We certainly do.

Of the 4 in my daughters friends, 3 are binding. And they are very blasé about it. Nothing more than wearing a corset my daughter told me (she is not binding). At least 2 do it without the parents knowing. No harm they say.

The worst of it though is the mental health. Each of those 4 has poor mental health and I have watched this get worse despite being affirmed at school, home and with their friends.

I want to be confident that the study announced by Liz Truss will help to identify better treatment options, but I don’t hold much hope. I think some major studies that reach further than just GIDS, going into even those who socially transition to understand this group as well. Particularly the ones on the waiting list right now.

It is interesting, isn't it. This condition of "being born in the wrong body" is very very rare, AND everyone that says they have it does have it, AND whole friend cohorts of teenage girls are transitioning one by one.

I also think that many people have no idea of the very large and rapidly growing numbers of trans teens and children. And the nature of journeys to their decisions to transition. I think it has changed very quickly and significantly.

Perhaps the lack of actual knowledge about what is happening right now and unreported is why it seems to be so easy to tell off women on the internet with direct experience of dealing with the issues daily that they are not coming to the topic with real concerns.

@Kettlingur

It is interesting, isn't it. This condition of "being born in the wrong body" is very very rare, AND everyone that says they have it does have it, AND whole friend cohorts of teenage girls are transitioning one by one.

The dissonance is very hard to deal with.

@Winesalot

I also think that many people have no idea of the very large and rapidly growing numbers of trans teens and children. And the nature of journeys to their decisions to transition. I think it has changed very quickly and significantly.

Perhaps the lack of actual knowledge about what is happening right now and unreported is why it seems to be so easy to tell off women on the internet with direct experience of dealing with the issues daily that they are not coming to the topic with real concerns.

Absolutely.

It is interesting, isn't it. This condition of "being born in the wrong body" is very very rare, AND everyone that says they have it does have it, AND whole friend cohorts of teenage girls are transitioning one by one

Except as I said before gender dysphoria is not required to be considered trans. Being gender non conforming or a cross dresser counts too.

So does non binary yet there seems to be different kinds of non binary. In males it seems to be feminine behaviour nd clothing at times and in females it still somehow ends up with them breast binding or having mastectomy at some point.

So even non binary isn't any one thing and lacks a solid definition.

There are just so many parts to all this and non really have any kind of definitive description . The words within the terms descriptions cannot be defined .

It also seems to be all or nothing which is a frustrating take. You either accept this affirmation only approach including hormones and surgeries or you somehow want to take away all their health care.

When in fact the opposite is true. We want good hraltbcare for trans people. We absolutely want their health care to be as carefully researched ajd scientifically proven and every option available complete with records, clear research into outcomes and proof that the pathway leads to happier healthier patients long term.

It also seems to be all or nothing which is a frustrating take.

I seem to have been deleted trying to say that.

It does come across as ‘anything other than total agreement’ can be defined as phobic. Anything seeking nuance, relevance, evidence and accuracy is binned as ‘nothing’.

@NotBadConsidering

If there aren’t that many trans teenagers, then every time one of them decides to detransition it must be statistically significant. If they’re so “few and far between”, then a forum with tens to hundreds becomes huge.

The Tavistock advised at one point recently they had 267 children on puberty blockers. How many of those would need to express regret in the future before it becomes a concerning number?

We know the 1% number is manipulated bullshit. What’s the real number? No one knows because no one has checked. And no one external has been allowed to study it.

For reference, the Bristol Heart Scandal was a scandal because 30 day mortality was twice elsewhere, around 4.3%. It was estimated that around 35 children would have otherwise survived if treated elsewhere.

There doesn’t need to be a high number of children mistreated for it to be a scandal.

• No acceptable way of defining the condition
• No objective test
• No way of distinguishing between those who might need hormone treatment and those who don’t
• Same blanket approach to all children, regardless of underlying and co-existing morbidities
• No adequate consent of children for treatment
• No public acknowledgement of the incontrovertible doctor-induced harm from the treatment
• No adequate follow up and documentation of children when they reach adulthood
• No knowledge of long term implications of decade-long cross sex hormone treatment on prepubertal bodies
• Recently emerged - after forced correction - that surgery doesn’t improve mental health
• Evidence published this year that adults who were on puberty blockers were more likely to have been hospitalised for a suicide attempt
• Evidence that mental health worsens following hormone treatment and certainly doesn’t improve
• An emerging population of adults who went through this as children whose experiences are dismissed as being false, fake, statistically insignificant and self-inflicted
• A complete inability of anyone actively involved in promoting the affirmative pathway - doctors, therapists, activists - of answering any challenging questions about this process without raising more questions.

• A blind failure of regulatory authorities to acknowledge or address concerns.

Overall, I am 100% confident that this moment in time in our medical history will have its own Wikipedia page in the future.

When you lay it all out like that it's pretty unbelievable that the NHS are supporting the affirmative pathway. By unbelievable I mean utterly shocking.

Gosh I hope I dont get deleted to.

If an anti biotic doesn't work you change it

If paracetamol doesn't work you try ibuprofen next time

Seeking an alternative and looking fir where things can be improved doesn't mean stop treating all together.

You don't give chemo for every cancer
You don't operate on every lump
You don't prescribe the same antibiotic for everything from a uti to tonsillitis.

Blanket approaches are not appropriate in most other kinds of medical situations. So it makes sense a blanket approach for this wouldn't be appropriate either.