Canada - Judge delays double mastectomy

[Dimpsey]

Saw this on twitter and thought I would share: vancouversun.com/news/b-c-supreme-court-judge-orders-surgeon-to-deny-trans-teens-mastectomy-wish?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1604974077

Mother of the child asking the surgeons to provide evidence of the protocol they have followed to demonstrate that the operation is in the child's best interests.

I also find it useful to hear a variety of views, but somehow this is all about MBD. Meanwhile my daily life, safety, healthcare, rights, etc. (as well as those of the child in this topic) are directly influenced by the natterings and edicts of a 'concerned' majority operating from a comfortable distance.

Hahaha the "child in this topic" is in brackets, of course. The rest is me me me look at me! and stop your supposed concerned nattering from afar! Come near, and be concerned for me!!! I'm crawling on broken glass, after all!!

Our concern is sincere because we are NOT doing this from a comfortable distance. They are girls and women in our families. But instead of adding to the discussion you reference "dining on stinking garbage" and say we are acting from a position of ignorance. And that we hate trans people and make the debate extremely toxic.

Someone is making this debate extremely toxic, yes.

Meanwhile my daily life, safety, healthcare, rights, etc. (as well as those of the child in this topic) are directly influenced by the natterings and edicts of a 'concerned' majority operating from a comfortable distance.

Can we please stick to the topic at hand which is actually not about you. It is about a teenaged female and not about you and your medical treatment at all. Because you are an adult. And as a mature adult male, you have specific medical needs different from a 17 year old female. You have individual needs that should be supported as much as any persons specific needs.

The subject here is the current treatment options for children and teens and their specific needs which should be tailored for them. This mother has won a court battle to be able to check that her daughter is receiving the best care that has been tailored for her daughter.

It could mean getting a second opinion. I would have thought that standard practice for many people with complex medical needs.

Now that American psychology has retracted that erroneous study stating that mental health was improved after transition what evidence is there that transitioning has positive effects for mental health? Something that this teen has significant issues with now.

So, significantly, it would be excellent to see a study based on the transition path of female children and teenagers over the past 5 years or since the massive increase in girls referred to GIDS started. Anything?

SophocIestheFox

I had an eye opening discovery of looking further at an account who was debating the inclusion of transwomen in rugby. I had not realized that porn was within twitter’s guidelines. So, I tend to be very careful in looking at activist’s timelines now. None of the porn was hidden and easily found by any underage user.

@Winesalot

Thanks for the link to the poll on Debbie Hayton.

Are you saying that twitter is now the place we should be looking to for the opinions of transpeople then?

YW, I learned a bit about Debbie in the process, and it has only cemented my opinion of her.

I did first go to Twitter expecting it to be all death and r+pe threats, TBH, but there are a lot of grown-ups in evidence, who were not hard to find, and who I'm sure would not turn a blind eye to any dickheads. Obviously no group has a monopoly on or immunity to dickheads, so I'm sure such people exist among the trans community, i just don't go looking for them, and i certainly don't follow them.

There are also many overlaps with women's rights struggles, for example in Poland or Hungary right now. Funnily enough, the trans-inclusive feminists are all over such topics, as there is lot of solidarity with LGBT, whilst the exclusionary ones only perk up when someone like Amnesty uses inclusive language.

so,
no evidence for medication as a successful treatment for transgender young people
no evidence for surgery as a successful treatment for transgender young people
no definition for gender identity/dysphoria
no diagnostic guidelines for gender dysphoria (at least realistic, non circular, non gender stereotypes)

growing evidence for the failure of medication/surgery as a treatment for gd - possibly due to the lack of diagnostic guidelines/definition of gender identity.

When are the grown ups going to wake up and smell the coffee?

Funnily enough, the trans-inclusive feminists are all over such topics, as there is lot of solidarity with LGBT, whilst the exclusionary ones only perk up when someone like Amnesty uses inclusive language.

That is quite the generalization there don’t you think? Very skewed and again wrong. But hey, any opportunity to shame women right?

I don't know, gardenbird. I'm really baffled as to how some of this stuff is making it into law and policy when it's so VAGUE. As you say there is just

no definition of 'gender dysphoria'.

Which is what ALL of this appears to be based on. Yet - what even is it? A feeling?

How can we base law, medical treatment and policy on a vague, undefined feeling?

Just want to add I'm here because I'm not only directly affected by a girl dealing with, but also with a young male family member. I found MN because, as the adults in their lives, we were feeling helpless that no one understood the long-term consequences of hormones and surgery. That's why I pay attention and learn from these threads.

Full adult maturity, for making decisions of this gravity is also in my view not gained on anyone’s 18th birthday. This is personally the issue I'm dealing with.

@gardenbird48

so, no evidence for medication as a successful treatment for transgender young people no evidence for surgery as a successful treatment for transgender young people no definition for gender identity/dysphoria no diagnostic guidelines for gender dysphoria (at least realistic, non circular, non gender stereotypes)

growing evidence for the failure of medication/surgery as a treatment for gd - possibly due to the lack of diagnostic guidelines/definition of gender identity.

When are the grown ups going to wake up and smell the coffee?

These treatments, etc. did not start a month ago. Where is the enormous queue of broken lives and miserable people that must surely exist by now? Statistically, regret rates remain extremely low.

And before you drag her into this, Keira Bell is a tragic outlier, who admitted gaming the system, and who committed herself to transition as an adult.

OP: Mother of the child asking the surgeons to provide evidence of the protocol they have followed to demonstrate that the operation is in the child's best interests.

MBD response, first page: Transgender people, of all ages, deserve suitable healthcare. Gaslighting a trans child that they are not trans is every bit as evil as gaslighting a non-trans child that they are trans. It is conversion therapy, whatever way you cut it.

Do you stand by your first take, that it is wrong to provide evidence of the protocol they have followed before removing the 17 year old's breasts, because "gaslighting"? Or are you just here for the shaming opportunities?

Low or not theres ckeay room for improvement.

Is there a reason you won't answer whether or not you think that coming up with diagnostic criteria that everyone agrees on and is compatible with what mermaids etc are saying? Do you not think a definition of what is being treated and why is important?

@Winesalot

Funnily enough, the trans-inclusive feminists are all over such topics, as there is lot of solidarity with LGBT, whilst the exclusionary ones only perk up when someone like Amnesty uses inclusive language.

That is quite the generalization there don’t you think? Very skewed and again wrong. But hey, any opportunity to shame women right?

I only seek to shame bigoted thinking. Go to Twitter and look for yourself. You might be surprised at the scope of the wood if you can see past the trees.

Speaking of generalisations, that's at least twice you've accused me of targeting women for being women, which is as cheap as it is wrong. Do you think I have not been the target of attempted shaming on this thread?

All of this is based on the fact that 'gender dysphoria' exists. So - what is it? Can it be measured? Is it either 'have it or don't have it'? Can one have a little bit of gender dysphoria?

What are the causes?

Co morbidities?

@FleetsumNJetsum

OP: Mother of the child asking the surgeons to provide evidence of the protocol they have followed to demonstrate that the operation is in the child's best interests.

MBD response, first page: Transgender people, of all ages, deserve suitable healthcare. Gaslighting a trans child that they are not trans is every bit as evil as gaslighting a non-trans child that they are trans. It is conversion therapy, whatever way you cut it.

Do you stand by your first take, that it is wrong to provide evidence of the protocol they have followed before removing the 17 year old's breasts, because "gaslighting"? Or are you just here for the shaming opportunities?

My quote makes no comment on that either way.

My heresy was to advocate for the possibility that the 17yo's decisions and treatment were entirely valid, which would otherwise have been absent from this thread. This would indeed have been shameful.

Valid based on what though.

We have no criteria anyone can agree on.
No definition
Nothing.

What is she being treated for?

The nhs points are based on bodies ajd stereotypes.

The support groups say its not stereotypes or the wrong body.

A surgical.plan should ve based around treating something what is that something?

Are you just not wanting to answer the question, or are you unable to, could you clarify, MadBad?

These treatments, etc. did not start a month ago. Where is the enormous queue of broken lives and miserable people that must surely exist by now? Statistically, regret rates remain extremely low.

www.piqueresproject.com/

www.detransadv.com/

sexchangeregret.com/

guideonragingstars.tumblr.com/post/149877706175/female-detransition-and-reidentification-survey

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/feb/03/experience-i-regret-transitioning (In the Guardian of all places!!)

Packed with detransitioners, and regretters. Ruined lives, ruined bodies. Will you click on those links, mbd, will you feel compassion for those women (and men), will you believe them?

Speaking of generalisations, that's at least twice you've accused me of targeting women for being women, which is as cheap as it is wrong.

I think that from past experiences with interchanges with you and this one, it does seem that you have gone from expressing concern about a teenaged girl's treatment to shaming the women on this thread. Am I mistaken that you inferred we were Komodo dragons, for instance?

And are you not inferring that our discussing this issue is coming from hate and ignorance and not concern that is also based in our own experiences and significantly, direct experience with the current cohort of teenaged girls who are identifying as trans right now?

I spend a lot of time on twitter so I am very aware of what goes on there. Which transpeople do you consider are representative of this particular situation, specifically teenaged females transitioning?

@SophocIestheFox

These treatments, etc. did not start a month ago. Where is the enormous queue of broken lives and miserable people that must surely exist by now? Statistically, regret rates remain extremely low.

www.piqueresproject.com/

www.detransadv.com/

sexchangeregret.com/

guideonragingstars.tumblr.com/post/149877706175/female-detransition-and-reidentification-survey

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/feb/03/experience-i-regret-transitioning (In the Guardian of all places!!)

Packed with detransitioners, and regretters. Ruined lives, ruined bodies. Will you click on those links, mbd, will you feel compassion for those women (and men), will you believe them?

I have talked about detransitioners elsewhere on this thread. I have every compassion and understanding for anyone brave enough to seriously question their own gender identity, wherever it leads them. Gender Identity is a stone few will turn over, the very idea of not taking such a thing for granted is deeply disturbing and unsettling, and no-one knows that better than us.

'Packed' means little, statistically. I'm not saying nothing could stand improvement, but your loaded language ("ruined") makes it clear that your only solution is to scrap our healthcare.

We don't want to scrap health care.

We want you to have evidenced based,nakd scientifically proven healthcare.

Are you implying you cant have both? Because surely that's a problem? That you cant have medication/surgery and evidence based care thats well documented and well reviewed?

And

Ffs stupid phone not sure where the n amd k came from

I have every compassion and understanding for anyone brave enough to seriously question their own gender identity, wherever it leads them.

Given what you've said in the rest of the thread, I simply do not believe you.

Gender Identity is a stone few will turn over

I would posit that many people on FWR have questioned their gender identity.
You, however, refuse to even discuss what it is.

your loaded language ("ruined") makes it clear that your only solution is to scrap our healthcare

It doesn't 'make that clear' at all, does it? Can you show your logic there?

makes it clear that your only solution is to scrap our healthcare.

I’ve said nothing of the sort. If you actually read what I’ve written on this very thread, it’s abundantly clear that what I want is excellent health care for trans identifying people, that has good clinical evidence, that is correctly delivered to adults who are able to consent to it, that covers all possible treatment modalities and differential diagnoses, that adjusts for confounding factors such as co morbid mental health conditions, and that is not politicised. What is objectionable about that?