Canada - Judge delays double mastectomy

[Dimpsey]

Saw this on twitter and thought I would share: vancouversun.com/news/b-c-supreme-court-judge-orders-surgeon-to-deny-trans-teens-mastectomy-wish?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1604974077

Mother of the child asking the surgeons to provide evidence of the protocol they have followed to demonstrate that the operation is in the child's best interests.

@FannyCann

Well at least two of us read the whole article Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud

It doesn't alter the fact the 16 year old does not live with the parent trying to stop this.

I have huge reservations at allowing parents to interfere here.

If a child asks a doctor to cut off a limb because they believe themselves to be one-limbed, I'd feel awful for that mother trying to stop it and I think it should be against the law to remove healthy body parts in children.

If a child asks a doctor to make them infertile, I'd feel awful for that mother trying to stop it and I think it should be against the law to make children infertile.

If a child asks a doctor for birth control pills, I'd NOT feel awful for a mother trying to stop it as birth control pills do not create irrevocable, unchangeable damage to a person's body.

If a child asks a doctor for an abortion, I WOULD feel awful for the mom but I don't believe it should be illegal in this case because an abortion does not create irrevocable, unchangeable damage to the mother's body, however, a pregnancy in a child CAN create serious health issues.

If a child asks a doctor for an abortion, I WOULD feel awful for the mom but I don't believe it should be illegal in this case because an abortion does not create irrevocable, unchangeable damage to the mother's body, however, a pregnancy in a child CAN create serious health issues.

What I was trying to say, but said better

@DeaconBoo

Why is no-one on this board questioning why that would be the case?

Because we get deleted for speculation or generalisations.

I pointed out that the child was not living with their parents in my post but I presume you didn't bother reading the full thread.

As others pointed out, I misread the 'separated' bit, so apologies for that. But for a child not to live with either parent? Yes that was 'pointed out' but to zero interest. I don't think my inadequate reading comprehension alters my point about the unquestioning validity of this parent's motivations towards their child's choices.

As for getting "deleted for speculation or generalisations" I didn't see and censoring of discussion of how 2 years olds get judged at nursery for playing with the wrong toys these days, or how stupid/evil the child's doctors are.

I maintain that the whole thread starts with a prejudicial belief in the nature of trans children ie that no such child exists. This is wrong, and hurts children.

I also wanted to point that out and that the mother was informed by the teen themselves.

This indicates some kind of recent relationship.

I'm asking MN why comments empathizing w/ mums of children undergoing surgery gets deleted.

I think mastectomies and sterilizations hurt children.

I am very uncomfortable at parents being able to stop medical treatment.

My eldest DD was one of the first cohorts to be offered HPV vaccination. I am pro vaccination in general. However, in the UK, the first HPV vaccination that the NHS chose was Cervarix, which does not provide additional protection from genital warts unlike Gardasil.
I discussed it with my 13 year old daughter, and explained the vaccination was offered to 13 year olds because some children are sexually active at that age. I pointed out the legal age of consent is 16, and I didn't expect her to be sexually active before that age. We agreed I would pay for her to have Gardasil, which offers additional protection, privately when she was 16. By the time she was 16 the NHS had had a rethink and changed to Gardasil, so she had the vaccination on the NHS.

I wish I had kept the letters I received from senior public health doctors telling me to get my daughter vaccinated and ignoring my reasons for not doing so. I was literally hounded.

As a post script, my now 22 year olds daughter tells me one of her friends has genital warts and the treatment isn't working and it is all horrible. She said she feels really badly for her friend as she didn't get the better vaccination that would have protected her from genital warts.

Should the state have overridden my informed decision making as a mother?

As for getting "deleted for speculation or generalisations" I didn't see
That's OK. You can believe women when we tell you that posts about named people are deleted for speculation or generalisations.

Saying 'zero interest' is wrong. several people have noted interest, but it would be inappropriate to speculate. What would be the point in taking random guesses about someone's life events?

According to the article, the parents have been "separated" from this child for over 16 years, since the child was 6 MONTHS OLD. Why is no-one on this board questioning why that would be the case?

Because we can read and it doesn't say what you want it to say to justify your bigotry here.

I maintain that the whole thread starts with a prejudicial belief in the nature of trans children ie that no such child exists. This is wrong, and hurts children.

How do you know this is wrong?

@Thingybob

I maintain that the whole thread starts with a prejudicial belief in the nature of trans children ie that no such child exists. This is wrong, and hurts children.

How do you know this is wrong?

um...because trans children do exist, and deserve the treatment they receive from dedicated professionals. To deny them treatment is cruel.

We're not all Keira Bell, y'know.

@FannyCann good for you on the Gardasil...I'm frantically checking if that was the HPV version we got for my daughter when she was 12....

And vaccines are certainly something many countries allow parents to opt out for their kids (FWIW, my kids got all their shots because I think vaccinations are smart). Some would argue that when parents make these medical decisions, not only are their children at risk, but the public. However, parents still have authority to refuse medical treatment for their children.

So, why in the world should any country allow child sterilization and/or body part removal against the wishes of their parents?

@FannyCann

I am very uncomfortable at parents being able to stop medical treatment.

My eldest DD was one of the first cohorts to be offered HPV vaccination. I am pro vaccination in general. However, in the UK, the first HPV vaccination that the NHS chose was Cervarix, which does not provide additional protection from genital warts unlike Gardasil.
I discussed it with my 13 year old daughter, and explained the vaccination was offered to 13 year olds because some children are sexually active at that age. I pointed out the legal age of consent is 16, and I didn't expect her to be sexually active before that age. We agreed I would pay for her to have Gardasil, which offers additional protection, privately when she was 16. By the time she was 16 the NHS had had a rethink and changed to Gardasil, so she had the vaccination on the NHS.

I wish I had kept the letters I received from senior public health doctors telling me to get my daughter vaccinated and ignoring my reasons for not doing so. I was literally hounded.

As a post script, my now 22 year olds daughter tells me one of her friends has genital warts and the treatment isn't working and it is all horrible. She said she feels really badly for her friend as she didn't get the better vaccination that would have protected her from genital warts.

Should the state have overridden my informed decision making as a mother?

Your child was under 16. I do not think that after 16 a parent should have any right to veto anything agreed by a 16 year old and their doctor.

Ignoring the angry poster who seems only to be here to accuse the whole feminist board of prejudice, I am pleased to read about this reasonable request.

The delay will give the mother, who opposes the surgery, a chance to determine if all the proper protocols were followed leading up to procedure.

As a parent I would expect the same safeguard for my children. If everything is so above board with this cosmetic surgery then why such horror and fury about checking proper protocols. The information must be readily available if followed.

It's a cosmetic surgeon.

um...because trans children do exist

That's not very convincing argument and I firmly believe there is no such thing. I have done what the TRAs suggest, i.e listen to children that believe they are trans. I've heard from hundreds of them but have never seen anything that distinguishes them from many other kids that grow up to accept the body they were born into.

Delphinium20 If your daughter is much younger than mine she should have got the Gardasil, I think the Cervarix was used for quite a short period, they had changed by the time my younger daughter, who is 20 now, was due for vaccination, so they both got done together.

I can never support surgery that harms bodies and impacts health for life being performed on healthy young people. I feel so sorry for parents who have tried or are trying to protect their children from this and are not getting the support they need to ensure their children receive appropriate psychological care.

Your child was under 16. I do not think that after 16 a parent should have any right to veto anything agreed by a 16 year old and their doctor.

Children aged 16-18 can get married with parental consent. In reality this mostly happens as a result of parental coercion and for this reason this young woman is campaigning to protect teens from coercive parents and prevent child marriage.

16-18 year olds are not adults and deserve protection. Sometimes they may need protecting from their parents. Other times they need protecting from themselves, and the online coercion they are exposed to and parents have a crucial role to play in keeping their teenagers safe.

www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-mp-safeguard-futures-end-child-marriage

[quote FannyCann]Your child was under 16. I do not think that after 16 a parent should have any right to veto anything agreed by a 16 year old and their doctor.

Children aged 16-18 can get married with parental consent. In reality this mostly happens as a result of parental coercion and for this reason this young woman is campaigning to protect teens from coercive parents and prevent child marriage.

16-18 year olds are not adults and deserve protection. Sometimes they may need protecting from their parents. Other times they need protecting from themselves, and the online coercion they are exposed to and parents have a crucial role to play in keeping their teenagers safe.

www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-mp-safeguard-futures-end-child-marriage[/quote]
16 year olds in Scotland can leave home and get married without parental consent.

I don't think there's much point arguing over whether trans children exist until we have a definition of what one actually is. If we're talking about children experiencing severe distress towards their sex characteristics and either wishing or believing themselves to be the opposite sex, then yes these children do seem to exist. If we're talking about children having something called a "gender identity" which in some way doesn't "match" their biological sex or "assigned gender", then no I don't think that's a thing. But you can easily convince me. All you have to do is define the terms "gender" and "gender identity", prove that they exist, then explain in what sense these things are "assigned" and in what way we should expect them all to "match". You'll still then need to demonstrate seperately of course that medication and surgery are the best treatments for these children, but it would at least give you a good starting point. If anyone has a different definition of the term "trans child" I'll be happy to hear it and assess it under the same criteria (ie can you define the terms you're using and prove that they actually exist?) Any takers?

Is it possible that the teen was removed from the mother for not giving consent for the hormones and/or surgery?

Seems very, very likely.

There is no such thing as a trans child.

There are female children with body dysmorphia.

There are male children with body dysmorphia.

There are female and male children who are gender non-conforming, who are happy to be gender non-conforming.

@PurpleHoodie

There is no such thing as a trans child.

There are female children with body dysmorphia.

There are male children with body dysmorphia.

There are female and male children who are gender non-conforming, who are happy to be gender non-conforming.

@Thingybob

There may well be all those types of children, but there are most certainly transgender children (I was one), and they deserve appropriate support and healthcare.

Your or anyone else's understanding of this is not required, but denying their existence, and attempts to deny them their care, are simply cruel

The 'child' in question is 17, not 7. This board is prejudiced against their decisions about their own lives and seeks to villify their healthcare providers. How certain can you be that your opinions are correct, and that you are not supporting their misery and distress?

I have no issues with the idea that some dc with gender dysmorphia exist.
Of course they do.
I don't think they should be allowed to create permanent irreversible damage to themselves.
Anymore than I think that dc with anorexia should be given a calorie counting app and a set of scales.