Canada - Judge delays double mastectomy

[Dimpsey]

Saw this on twitter and thought I would share: vancouversun.com/news/b-c-supreme-court-judge-orders-surgeon-to-deny-trans-teens-mastectomy-wish?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1604974077

Mother of the child asking the surgeons to provide evidence of the protocol they have followed to demonstrate that the operation is in the child's best interests.

Funnily enough, the trans-inclusive feminists are all over such topics, as there is lot of solidarity with LGBT, whilst the exclusionary ones only perk up when someone like Amnesty uses inclusive language.

And specifically, I also referred to this sentence where you have attempted to shame 'exclusionary ones', which I take it to mean 'male exclusionary ones', only perk up when someone like Amnesty uses inclusive language.

Clearly, you are stating that a women who excludes males from their fight for women's rights are not also fighting for the women in Poland and in Hungary and are focussed on issues such as inclusive language (which by your tone seems to be 'superficial').

If I have misread this sentence, please feel free to correct me.

These treatments, etc. did not start a month ago. Where is the enormous queue of broken lives and miserable people that must surely exist by now? Statistically, regret rates remain extremely low.

Not a month ago, but they are relatively recent. The enormous increase in teenage girls identifying as transgender only started in around 2014 (in the UK, at least), so those girls are very young adults now. Also, in the UK, GIDS doesn't follow up on what happens to the young people who use their service once they leave for adult services, and nobody keeps track of whether these young people continue with their transgender identity or detransition, so there are no reliable statistics.

Normally, treatment protocols don't consist of doing an experiment on a cohort of people, and continue with that experiment with more and more people over the years until they see whether there is a pattern of broken lives and miserable people (whilst not properly following up to see whether this is the case). Trans people are being very poorly served by the health services if this is how their treatment is being carried out.

For most conditions, the expectation is that there will be clear diagnostic criteria which should be met before any medical treatment is prescribed. Why is this not happening for children who identify as transgender? Why are such children being experimented on?

I will soften my language from “ruined bodies and ruined lives though”. I hope that detransitioners can go on to lead full and fulfilling lives, and that their bodies are as healthy as they can be.

@Winesalot

Speaking of generalisations, that's at least twice you've accused me of targeting women for being women, which is as cheap as it is wrong.

I think that from past experiences with interchanges with you and this one, it does seem that you have gone from expressing concern about a teenaged girl's treatment to shaming the women on this thread. Am I mistaken that you inferred we were Komodo dragons, for instance?

And are you not inferring that our discussing this issue is coming from hate and ignorance and not concern that is also based in our own experiences and significantly, direct experience with the current cohort of teenaged girls who are identifying as trans right now?

I spend a lot of time on twitter so I am very aware of what goes on there. Which transpeople do you consider are representative of this particular situation, specifically teenaged females transitioning?

@Winesalot

The first part of my comment that you did not refer to answers most of your concerns about 'shaming'. I'll shame opinions, not people, and it would be nice to feel that was reciprocated. As for Komodo Dragons, it was an analogy, nothing more. I'm sure most of you don't even live in Indonesia.

Ignorance is not a crime, it may wound pride but it exists only until knowledge appears. If the ignorance remains and becomes willful, then 'hate' is not completely inaccurate. There is a lot of ignorance surrounding trans lives, and some if it is fed from very hateful sources.

I am very concerned by the current focus on teenage transitioners, and believe that to inflict dysphoria on a non-trans person is truly awful, but as I have said, my inclination is to defer to the pros, who seem to be doing a good job despite frequently being 'monstered', and that debate and discussion is desirable if the toxicity can be overcome.
However, once words like 'mutilation' or 'ruined' or flat denials of trans validity start wafting around unchecked, it is clear that 'concern' is too generous a term for what is motivating the discussion.

I suspect today isn’t going to be that day, wines...

X-post.

I am very concerned by the current focus on teenage transitioners, and believe that to inflict dysphoria on a non-trans person is truly awful, but as I have said, my inclination is to defer to the pros, who seem to be doing a good job despite frequently being 'monstered', and that debate and discussion is desirable if the toxicity can be overcome

Well the definition of trans according to say stonewall has been expanded from those with gender dysphoria, to cover anyone from cross dressers/part time cross dressers amd those who don't confirm to stereotypes.

In fact its considered transphobic ro assume that trans people have to have dysphoria

So , given that now so many people now fall under this category thats taking up time and resources . If they don't have to have dysphoria whats being treated?

If they don't have to have dysphoria whats being treated?

Good question.

my inclination is to defer to the pros, who seem to be doing a good job despite frequently being 'monstered'

So, what about the pros who are saying that this isn't working? You keep saying that you support the expert's opinions, but all through this thread you have yet to acknowledge that there are some very experienced practitioners who are raising significant issues. Why?

And before you drag her into this, Keira Bell is a tragic outlier, who admitted gaming the system, and who committed herself to transition as an adult.

wow - that is harsh!! Keira says that she started her transition journey when she was 14 and was on hormones by 16 - that is not adult.

As other pps have provided evidence of, she is far from being a 'tragic outlier' as you so pleasantly put it and how on earth did she 'game the system'?? She went to the gender clinic and was affirmed in her thinking that she may be trans (from internet research) and then was prescribed drugs for medical transition. She was offered little or no psychological support from the adults and understandably, wants the grown ups to sort this out so no one else ends up in her situation.

Do you have a tiny bit of sympathy for her plight @MadBadDaddy? You could ask her yourself if you have any questions - she is on here and an amazing person.

In my experience, when a patient goes to the doctor with their self diagnosis from internet research the doctor snorts a bit, ignores it and carries on with their job of making a correct diagnosis and working out a treatment - they do not agree and with no actual evidence (we like evidence on mn) hand out prescriptions to treat whatever condition the patient thinks they may have.

Various studies have shown that adolescents have limited risk taking and impulsivity control - they are more likely to take risks with little regard to the consequences. This will have a major impact on their decision making ability especially when thinking about major life changing decisions - that is why we do not (should not) allow young people to make major and irreversible decisions.

This has been explained a number of times across a number of threads, of which I believe you have been part madbad so what is your take on this? Do you agree that teenagers/young adults may lack effective risk assessment and decision making capacity?

Rather than dismissing detransitioners out of hand, please could you read some of the links above and find out more about it and reconsidering your opinion based on the available evidence.

not sure if this one was included above: www.feministcurrent.com/2020/01/09/detransitioners-are-living-proof-the-practices-surrounding-trans-kids-need-be-questioned/

There's none so blind as those who will not see.

As other pps have provided evidence of, she is far from being a 'tragic outlier' as you so pleasantly put it and how on earth did she 'game the system'??

Didn't the GIDS whistleblowers say that some of the young people using their services would appear to have been coached into what to say to get treatment? If so, the blame for 'gaming the system' lies with they fishy tailed ones or whoever was doing the coaching as much as with the young people themselves, who could be viewed as victims of the people coaching them as well as the medical personnel who took their statements at face value.

@Winesalot

my inclination is to defer to the pros, who seem to be doing a good job despite frequently being 'monstered'

So, what about the pros who are saying that this isn't working? You keep saying that you support the expert's opinions, but all through this thread you have yet to acknowledge that there are some very experienced practitioners who are raising significant issues. Why?

I'll say it yet again, I'm all for debate, but the debate is too often toxic.

Everything I say offers a dozen opportunities for de-railing, and i am no less at risk of doing that than anyone else. I guess I came here to support the status quo of a trans child in Canada (or elsewhere) consenting to receive appropriate treatment.
Practitioners raise issues all the time, but it is assumed here that their concerns are not only publicised impartially, but that they are beyond criticism and yet fall on deaf ears, which doesn't sound like modern healthcare to me. What motivates these beliefs? This thread contains comments that are frankly "Painful to observe" as i put it in one of my earliest posts. "My impressionable, deluded, mutilated child" is an easy story to sell, and too easy to buy. Trans lives (& detrans lives)
are so few and far between that they are ripe for anyone's exploitation with little risk of being effectively challenged.

The problem is that teenagers can be absolutely convinced that certain courses of action are the right thing for them. Cutting off healthy body parts is such an extreme action that it definitely isn't suitable "healthcare" for a 27 year old girl.

If Keira Bell was so exceptional TRAs wouldn't be working to hard to shame, isolate, deny and intimidate all the other detransitioners. She's the tip of the iceberg, as Newsnight just began to uncover. Hopefully a follow up is on the cards.

Practitioners raise issues all the time, but it is assumed here that their concerns are not only publicised impartially, but that they are beyond criticism and yet fall on deaf ears, which doesn't sound like modern healthcare to me.

Please clarify this sentence. Which practitioners? Which issues and concerns? I, for one, have asked you for evidence for the current treatment path that especially relates to females of this age group since the rapid increase started.

What evidence do you have that allowing transition before mental health has been sufficiently dealt with is more effective than allowing mental health to be treated and than transition when the patient is more mature?

There's a lot of bigots commenting on that Guardian article from Feb 2017. No wonder they had to close comments. Far too many people biggotly empathising with a detransitioner, the biggoty bigots.

Obviously I meant a 17 year old girl.

@gardenbird48

And before you drag her into this, Keira Bell is a tragic outlier, who admitted gaming the system, and who committed herself to transition as an adult.

wow - that is harsh!! Keira says that she started her transition journey when she was 14 and was on hormones by 16 - that is not adult.

As other pps have provided evidence of, she is far from being a 'tragic outlier' as you so pleasantly put it and how on earth did she 'game the system'?? She went to the gender clinic and was affirmed in her thinking that she may be trans (from internet research) and then was prescribed drugs for medical transition. She was offered little or no psychological support from the adults and understandably, wants the grown ups to sort this out so no one else ends up in her situation.

Do you have a tiny bit of sympathy for her plight @MadBadDaddy? You could ask her yourself if you have any questions - she is on here and an amazing person.

In my experience, when a patient goes to the doctor with their self diagnosis from internet research the doctor snorts a bit, ignores it and carries on with their job of making a correct diagnosis and working out a treatment - they do not agree and with no actual evidence (we like evidence on mn) hand out prescriptions to treat whatever condition the patient thinks they may have.

Various studies have shown that adolescents have limited risk taking and impulsivity control - they are more likely to take risks with little regard to the consequences. This will have a major impact on their decision making ability especially when thinking about major life changing decisions - that is why we do not (should not) allow young people to make major and irreversible decisions.

This has been explained a number of times across a number of threads, of which I believe you have been part madbad so what is your take on this? Do you agree that teenagers/young adults may lack effective risk assessment and decision making capacity?

Rather than dismissing detransitioners out of hand, please could you read some of the links above and find out more about it and reconsidering your opinion based on the available evidence.

not sure if this one was included above: www.feministcurrent.com/2020/01/09/detransitioners-are-living-proof-the-practices-surrounding-trans-kids-need-be-questioned/

There's none so blind as those who will not see.

@gardenbird48

I described Keira's case as 'tragic' did I not? You glib summary of GD treatment speaks to your unsympathetic and ignorant view of trans healthcare and accepted practice of judging adolescent competency.

By 'committing' to transition I'm referring to surgery, which she had at age 20. A year or so on T might make some changes, but nothing that takes you completely out of the bell curve of female development like a mastectomy would.

By 'gaming the system' I'm referring to her telling the GIDS what she knew they wanted to hear. No amount of safeguarding can reliably mitigate against that with 100% success, although I'm sure there are lessons to be learned.

I'm sorry she had regrets about her choices, but the sympathy runs a bit thin once she became a well-resourced GC poster-child attempting to sue the NHS and turn trans healthcare into even more of a painful drawn out maze than it currently is.

As for my 'tiny bit of sympathy' and 'dismissing detransitioners out of hand' I've mentioned my opinions about and experiences with detransitioners several times on this thread, if you want to ignore all of that and just shame me for what you imagine to be the case, that's up to you and par for the course here. Please ignore this also - get stuffed.

@RuffleCrow

If Keira Bell was so exceptional TRAs wouldn't be working to hard to shame, isolate, deny and intimidate all the other detransitioners. She's the tip of the iceberg, as Newsnight just began to uncover. Hopefully a follow up is on the cards.

Not true

@Winesalot

Practitioners raise issues all the time, but it is assumed here that their concerns are not only publicised impartially, but that they are beyond criticism and yet fall on deaf ears, which doesn't sound like modern healthcare to me.

Please clarify this sentence. Which practitioners? Which issues and concerns? I, for one, have asked you for evidence for the current treatment path that especially relates to females of this age group since the rapid increase started.

What evidence do you have that allowing transition before mental health has been sufficiently dealt with is more effective than allowing mental health to be treated and than transition when the patient is more mature?

You brought it up, I trust the pros. Why would I have any 'evidence' of anything?

ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2020.1778correction

Sounds like the pros might just be getting it a bit wrong!

By 'gaming the system' I'm referring to her telling the GIDS what she knew they wanted to hear.

And how would a child know that? Who helped her? Aren't they culpable? And why would GIDS 'want to hear' that? Do you mean 'Tell GIDS what she knew would get her the treatment she wanted'?

No amount of safeguarding can reliably mitigate against that with 100% success, although I'm sure there are lessons to be learned.

There are plenty of lessons to be learned. And one line of action which could be taken is closing down organisations like Mermaids which are coaching children to say the things that will get them the treatment they want following the child's self-diagnosis.

Another one is that the medical professionals should be doing their job and diagnosing using objective criteria, not just relying on a child's self-diagnosis gained from the internet.

By 'gaming the system' I'm referring to her telling the GIDS what she knew they wanted to hear

Either what she told GIDS was true, and therefore correctly reached their criteria for treatment, or you are saying she lied. Which is it?

I'm sorry she had regrets about her choices, but the sympathy runs a bit thin once she became a well-resourced GC poster-child attempting to sue the NHS and turn trans healthcare into even more of a painful drawn out maze than it currently is

Whys that her fault? If it was proper scientifically proven well researched care it would have made no difference.

Do you want un regulated and unproven health care ?