Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

[chilling19]

Share token

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

Imagine if the answer Noakes got was a resounding "actually, it's still far too much."

NB obvs

So many deleted comments in that times article

TRAs watch Mumsnet closely. They will have seen recent discussions here about how good the comments are in the Times and how knowledgeable many of the commenters are. I wouldn’t put it past them to orchestrate mass reporting. I’ve certainly noticed an increase in overzealous moderation there recently.

but the whole point of this is that the trans women activist types insist on using the WOMENs toilets,

This is exactly the problem.

One thing that struck me whilst reading this was how often locks on loo doors are broken. With luck the cubicle is small enough to be able to hold the door closed whilst on the toilet. I would feel much less safe if I thought men were likely to try the door.

@jj1968

The rules are not draconian jj1968 and they worked perfectly well - the ONLY people who should use the FEMALE toilets are those of the FEMALE sex.

Err what rules? When has anyone ever been prosecuted for using a toilet that matches their gender?

This is getting so tiring, jj. It's as if you are completely deaf and not listening. If I had used a public ladies' loo and there's been an obvious man in there, transgender or not, I would not have affronted him, told him to get out, even if it were my right -- because MAN. Many women are like this. You never know who you are dealing with. You suffer in silence rather than complain. Many women don't even report rape. Do you really think a woman, upset at finding a male in the ladies', would bother to prosecute? Would she stop to take photos as evidence etc? No, she'd just suck it up. Men know this, trans or not. Saying oh tw have been using your toilets forever and no problem is utterly tone deaf. You are not listening, not sympathizing with how WOMEN feel about this. You don't care. All your support goes to tw.

You say all the women you know "don't care" about mixed sex private arreas. Are all the women you know uni students, perhaps; maybe they are all trans allies anyway. Try talking to ordinary women on the street. Women over 50. Ask them how they feel.

And please drop the claptrap about "gender they align with". You cannot "align" with being a woman, either you are one or you aren't. Real women usually don't go barging into places they aren't wanted, so there's one indicator. We have personalities, not genders.

JJ said something along the lines of lots of people take selfies in the toilets. Really?

I never even get my phone out in the toilets because I wouldn’t want to make others feel worried that I might be using the camera.

Surely it is really inappropriate and disrespectful to others to take photos in toilets or changing rooms?

My local council facilities have posters all over the place saying devices must not be used at all in toilets and changing rooms and that if anyone does they will be asked to leave and possibly banned. I started taking books to read while waiting for my children to change as I didn’t want anyone to be worried by my kindle even though it is a paperwhite and has no camera.

Yet I see a surprising number of selfies taken in toilets posted online! Usually taken by one sex and in the toilets of the opposite sex. I find it truly disturbing.

Who the fuck takes selfies in the bog?

I mean apart from nspcc rubber wanky man and the like.

Maybe in a club bog with your mates where the light is a bit better but that's about it tbh.

Men have weird ideas about what women do in the toilet. Men have weird ideas about what women do, full stop. Anyone fancy a pillow fight?

I think that particularly lately jj and another poster who is male have done a very splendid job of making it very clear that neither of them have ANY notion of what being a women actually means or entails. Both have shown just how misogynistic their perceptions are and in some threads the hatred for females has poured out. It has been truly enlightening for regulars as it must be for other readers. Gems from one poster such as describing female prisoners as ‘privileged’, and other gems like jj who insists the majority of posters on this board are middle class and in a privileged bubble amongst other misinformed trope.

The fact that they also like to tell us how they use these threads to highlight how phobic they are makes it even better. The only hate displayed is usually their own towards women discussing women’s rights and how the rights being pushed for by a group of people of which ‘some’ are transgender conflict with those which women have for their safety, dignity and access to opportunity.

Their discussion points are never backed by anything but opinion and it shows. It truly is a good exercise as every time facts and resources that have been proven are used to rebut or are mentioned so readers can make up their own minds. That leaves the often convoluted opinion vs the facts and studies or well thought out logic.

It is tiring but the clear misogyny displayed also reminds me what I am fighting for and who will benefit.

I think that particularly lately jj and another poster who is male have done a very splendid job of making it very clear that neither of them have ANY notion of what being a women actually means or entails.

Can’t possibly work out who you’re referring too😂

Just a quick hands up: having heard a male proponent of enforced removal of all female spaces, who has repeatedly said in various ways (I lost count of the posts) that regardless of law, or impact on female needs or feelings, some males will just do whatever they want....

anyone feeling all reassured that having such males in female spaces where females are vulnerable is obviously a lovely, positive, unthreatening, mutually respectful thing that no one needs to worry about?

To be truthful, I'd rather share a loo with men who would never, ever even think of using to women's because they respect our boundaries and would shrink in horror at the idea.
It's the men, however they "identify", who want our spaces that I do not want to share with.

Transwomen who insist on using our loos despite being told no are showing their true "gender": not-woman.

(I don't submit to the idea that identifying with a "gender" is anything to be taken seriously, which is why I use quotes.)

To be truthful, I'd rather share a loo with men who would never, ever even think of using to women's

Well yes, this happened in my last workplace after the men's were damaged. Their concern to make sure no women were in at the same time made it fine.

So many excellent posts on this thread. I’m delighted to see this ‘guarantee’ getting coverage as a statement of principle going in the right direction at least.

This consultation is nothing to do with trans rights. It doesn’t mention transgender/ trans or transsexual even once.

Afaik most transitioned people are not campaigning for mix sex facilities. (‘Non binary’ maybe).

The consultation does mention that women always need to use cubicles. As do fully transitioned trans women. This isn’t about stopping trans people from using the toilets of their transitioned or legal sex. I don’t believe the government would try and do that.

To be truthful, I'd rather share a loo with men who would never, ever even think of using to women's

Well yes, this happened in my last workplace after the men's were damaged. Their concern to make sure no women were in at the same time made it fine.

Agreed. I saw a situation where the women’s were out of order and the male attendant held guard whilst some women used the men’s. The other men waited patiently outside.

Really NOT difficult for men who respect women’s boundaries and needs.

And as usual jj keeps posting that women are not found partially dressed in loos. And keeps reassuring us that jj knows very fucking little about women.

A) washing blood out of clothes or baby sick or any thing and drying under the hand drier.

B) how many times did I have a pram shoved in the door while I was sitting on the toilet? Many, many times. jj is completely ignorant about wrangling children in the loos.

C) I have had to use public loos many times to get changed to go on somewhere else and the toilet floor is filthy so you have to do it in the public area. Or... change a child who has wet/soiled their clothes.

D) as another pp has posted about wheelchair users. But I have had to take my barely mobile mum in and had to assist her on and off the loo and in and out of clothes in public loos.

Plus let’s not forget in the 2000s, perverted males with mobile phones shooting under toilet walls/doors etc were not a factor in women’s safety in loos. Cameras in phones were not good enough at the time, there was no boundaries being blurred so males were easily dealt with and if they did get a pic, the internet had limited options for distribution. So that has now also become a significant issue in female facilities that needs to be dealt with. Hard now to deal with it if boundaries are non existent.

Keep on posting jj. In your total ignorance you keep shedding light. You truly have no comprehension that you have so little knowledge about women yet keep professing that of course transwomen are women.

If anyone is looking for examples to include in a consultation response of why women want and need single-sex women’s toilets provision (not gender neutral) then please read this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3203454-What-do-you-use-the-womens-toilets-for

I’ve found it very useful before for pointing out some seemingly fairly obvious things out to people who don’t get it..

I honestly don't think there is any claim to a shared sense of identity or community with the female people being spoken to here when mention of using facilities of chosen gender is mentioned. It seems to be more a kind of bafflement and annoyance that you'd see if the furniture kept answering back and getting out of position. It's become quite clear to me in conversations here over the past few weeks that there's no desire to be or to join females, which explains the bafflement women have had from the start about the mixed messaging. Share isn't a word that is involved here. This seems increasingly to me to be about spaces and stuff and claiming and ownership, and deeply held beliefs about who has the right to do the naming, claiming and owning. That's where the real discussion is. And that's why women are confused, because they never understood the terms of the discussion in the first place, nor see their needed spaces and issues as stuff, nor see their saying no/stating female needs and issues as just being a petty battle over ownership. It's no wonder GC women aren't being listened to: we aren't even involved in the same discussion.

There is also no point in trying to continue to explain why many women need single sex toilets, because it's based on a hope of a reasonable listener who just hasn't yet fully understood the situation, and if explained to enough, will realise and respect the speaker's position.

Let's face this: it's very apparent in the recent threads around this, women's needs, issues, feelings, inclusion, exclusion, protected characteristics, consent, boundaries - these are considered absolutely irrelevant to the matter at hand. To paraphrase a poster on last week's thread: if you won't see yourself the way I tell you to (as a privileged, pampered group who deserve this) then I can't communicate with you. To paraphrase a poster on this thread: it doesn't matter what females say, what problems females have, what laws are passed, some males will do what they want anyway.

This is absolutely straight forward sexism, that sees one birth sex as superior to another, and with absolute right to take what they want with outrage that the inferior sex is not respectful of this.

It's a step forward, it proves very clearly why females need sex clear in law, why sex based protections in law are required, and why the law now needs reinforcing to enforce what will not happen out of feelings of inclusion, good will, mutual respect and equality on the part of male people who are prejudiced against female people and who do not see them as worthy of this treatment. Much simpler debate to be having.

Michelle
Absolutely. I can say that gender identity undermines my sense of self as a woman. It attacks the biological core of my identity and the response seems to be BUT we are telling you what a woman is.

It is the epitome of privilege to tell people that you know their experiences better than they do. It is gaslighting and in some cases mansplaining on a monumental scale. I keep going back to manspreading memes and think that is analogous to what is going on here. Women expected to squeeze into a smaller and smaller space to allow male bodied people room to spread.

It’s not just we aren’t being listened to, it’s that we are not expected to have a view at all. We are scenery in the drama of someone’s life, intended to provide a backdrop but not to be an actor. So there is a constant effort to shove us into our prescribed place so they can carry on with their monologues.

I always wonder if posters like JJ are fifth columnists. Because surely JJ can't possibly think he's making a good impression. I think of the tens of thousands of lurkers we know watch this board and hope all our visiting misogynists continue to reveal the nasty attitudes that fuel their nonsense.

The lack of self awareness of our misogynistic posters is quite staggering to behold, though, not unexpected.

An academic told me about the toilets in her building being made gender neutral. She used to watch muslim and overseas atudents have to go out on the rain to access single sex facilities on the next building.

It made her sad to see evidence of the lack of agency of some of the least powerful members of the University. A very small number of special voices clearly outweigh those of a number of less special people.