Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

[chilling19]

Share token

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

Oh for fucks sake.

I mean just. For fucks sake.

The link on the op is about the government saying that it is not ok, and most definitely not the law, that women's facilities left right and centre have an all genders sticker slapped on the door, while the gents remains the gents.

That it's not ok and definitely not preferable for women, who need more facilities, are having theirs labelled unisex. So men have increased options, and women have decreased options. Whether that's through even longer queues as now they are sharing with men, or because women will look elsewhere to use to loo etc.

That has ZERO to do with trans anything. It's about the pervasive opening up of women's facilities to all. Which is not logical (we need more facilities not less) and not fair (men who need less facilities get way more, women who need more facilities get less + men in their bogs which they (we) simply do not want.

Nothing to do with trans anything, JJ. I note that the only engagement you have had with this point is that women should fight for yet more bogs (changing rooms etc) for yet more groups... Essentially say ok fine we fought to have our own facilities, we've been fighting for years for pissing parity or whatever it's called, and we get not very far. But yes have what we have got, won. Hand that all over to the chaps and we can start all fucking over again.

It would make WAY more sense to open up the gents as mixed sex. There are very rarely queues for the gents. Why is it women's that are all being made mixed sex. (The answer is of course urinals... But genitals don't matter do they?! I'm sure that was said somewhere upthread...).

And for the Tavistock case. Thanks for the support.

Chuckles, and wonders if I can negotiate a commission deal with the lawyers.

A VAWG charity would be nice next.

Save your money for now though I'm off to bed, I'll reply some other time @NRatched

Night.

@jj1968

Chuckles, and wonders if I can negotiate a commission deal with the lawyers.

A VAWG charity would be nice next.

How capitalist of you. Shallow.

And women includes trans women, unless theres an amendment to the Equalities Act proposed that I haven't seen yet.

What amendment to the Equality Act do you imagine would be needed? Guidance would be enough. The GRA may need to be amended, I'll grant you, but it looks like that's happening anyway, so maybe a clarification on limitations can be slotted in.

The issue around who uses the facilities is separate.

JJ do you welcome the government saying that public sector services and employers who have slapped a unisex sign on all the ladies faculties and left the gents alone, should change it back? Given our need for more facilities not less, and putting the trans issue to one side.

Yes it's good or no it's not. What do you think?

@NiceGerbil

The issue around who uses the facilities is separate.

JJ do you welcome the government saying that public sector services and employers who have slapped a unisex sign on all the ladies faculties and left the gents alone, should change it back? Given our need for more facilities not less, and putting the trans issue to one side.

Yes it's good or no it's not. What do you think?

Yes where a gender neutral sign has been slapped on the women's toilets change them back.

I think it would be a shame if this review leads to a discouragement of more thoughtfully planned gender neutral provision though.

I think it would be a shame if this review leads to a discouragement of more thoughtfully planned gender neutral provision though.

Do you agree that mixed sex facilities in addition to separate female and male facilities would be a step forward?

Thank you JJ.

It's happened at my local tube station. Now no women's. The men have a gents with urinals and a cubicle. The women had two cubicles in a different platform that are now either sex. Then there's 1 accessible one that is unisex.

As I'm getting older and have had a couple of kids I pee more than I used to. More than once I've got in the queue for the mixed sex. Men looking mildly confused at having to queue. I say oh there's a proper gents over there with urinals and everything and they merrily trot off.

No way do men want the longer queues that mixed sex/ no urinals will inevitably involve.

And some men do take the piss. When I was heavily pregnant and desperate (and before they changed the signs) I was queuing with about 3 other women and it was taking ages. After about 5 mins the door opened and a male tube driver wandered out and smirked. He couldn't be bothered to go to the other platform, obviously. The other women's cubicle was out of action that day.

I nearly pissed myself! And the other women were looking pretty uncomfortable as well...

Of course men will use things that are made available to them. Why wouldn't they?

I'm glad we agree that where women's facilities have been relabelled gender neutral/ mixed sex they should be changed back. Phew!

If there was a drive to introduce more gender neutral/ mixed sex facilities, more family changing, more changing tables in gents etc women on here would get behind it.

What we are pissed off about is our facilities being made mixed sex. We don't have enough already.

Thing is, there's limited space and cash. The disability rights groups have had to fight and fight and fight to get what provision they have, which is still limited.

Places like old theatres, the tube. Where do they put them? There are logistical issues.

Certainly I'd get behind a campaign for more facilities for women, more family, more disabled, more 'gender neutral' etc.

I'm sure many women on here would.

The question of where trans people go is separate to what this thread is about. But it does seem to have been side tracked that way.

FWIW I think that facilities and services like prisons, hospital wards should be safe for everyone. The prison reform trust is good to support I think. Many people are at risk in prison. The acceptance of violence and sexual attacks is horrendous. I read a heart rending account of a young man who committed suicide. It needs to change.

Everyone should be safe. However. Prisons should be single sex. That's just a given. I can't believe that is not the case in the UK.

Sorry rambling. There is common ground. We should have been allies. But this crass bulldozering of everything women have fought for. Up to and including our words to name ourselves as a sex class, 50% if the population that has been and continues to be oppressed all over the world... It's a no. It's a hard no. There's no other answer.

So, no, these don't seem to be articles written by women arguing for the elimination of single sex spaces because that would be better for women.

No OldCrone. I read them too and did not think it was relevant to what jj was saying.

Not only that, but the sage paper used only people’s stories and only from one side of the argument at that. I thought it was a crap paper that didn’t address the issues they deplored women for expressing.

Not once did they address the real issues like privacy when doors have to be left open. the article talked about ‘adjusting’ clothing - fuck that. The number of times I have used or have walked in on women actually with clothes off washing and drying.

No, that paper was superficial and not balanced at all.

I wish we (myself included) could stop using this ridiculous term 'gender neutral'. All loos should be 'gender neutral' - a gender nonconforming or 'masculine' woman can obviously use female single sex loos; a 'feminine' male shouldn't. 'Gender' is completely irrelevant. There is no earthly reason for any segregation by 'gender'.

The world would be a better place if we could ditch the whole regressive, sexist concept of gender altogether.

The idea that whether or not men should use the toilets for their sex depends on what they’re wearing & whether they’ve made alterations to their body is beyond ridiculous. The idea that someone should look at me with my Grade 2 haircut, hoodie, jeans & boots & think all that makes me a man is just plain bonkers.

I don't think its so much people wanting to 'erase them from the debate'..as others trying to shoehorn them in to prop up their own view, which really, has fuck all to do with gender non conforming women or how they are percieved, and everything to do with male people, which is a totally different thing. Some women may have had that experience, if they did, thats shit. But it is not a common thing, or not among me and my butch mates anyway. Men call us men, often. But women know we are women, is the general rule.

Unfortunately you’re just a tool used to leverage support, in the same way intersex is co-opted to try and prop up the debate.

I’m a woman (a real one) and have never mistaken a butch woman for a man. I played rugby for many years and we had a high number of GNC women who were welcomed with open arms.

As always, women aren’t the problem.

JJ helpfully provided his definition of gender and gender identity on another thread:

I believe gender identity is the individually experienced internal sense of ourselves as male, female, or neither, which maybe produced by social or biological forces or a combination of both, no-one knows except it's something many people, not just trans people, report experiencing.

I believe gender as a societal force is a set of socially imposed behaviours which we are conditioned to perform both consciously and unconsciously and which functions to lock male domination over women in place.

This is what I said about those definitions:

That's more or less what I think of as gender, although I would have said that they were 'expected' behaviours, since none of us are compelled to comply.

By definition, 'gender identity' is an identity based around the concept of gender. So this 'internal sense' must be based on how well we feel we conform to the socially imposed (or expected) behaviours. From this I understand that 'gender identity' is the internalised form of how we feel about the stereotypical behaviours expected of members of our sex. So it has to be all about stereotypes. How can it not be?

I'm still waiting for jj to explain why I've got this wrong.

I am really quite amazed that butch lesbians (admittedly I only know a few including one of my close friends) are mistaken by women as being male after the first superficial glance.

Maybe because I have poor long distance vision, but I mentioned a while back on this thread that gait has been noted as being different due to pelvic configuration. Then up close, facial structure gives it away for me and then if you hear people talk rarely would you get that wrong unless someone like Paris lees who has obviously done a great deal to be the feminine ideal.

There are so many factors. Does jj honestly believe that butch lesbians are taking testosterone etc that will change these other characteristics.

I so rarely go by what people wear, as I myself rarely wear anything that is non-unisex and baggy. Plus I have no bust so me sticking my chest out will actually make me look like I am strutting and make no difference.

Does it happen to butch lesbians? Of course it does. i have read about people’s experiences. I suggest it is males who mis sex butch lesbians more than women. And it is should be something that is addressed.

Each time this poster posts something about butch lesbians, it seems they are simply using butch lesbians as leverage for their own gain. That is to assert that males should use women’s spaces whenever they want for those male’s needs of safety. Instead of dealing with the root of the issue- addressing male violence.

And repeatedly ignores the logic that if women were confident that only females were in their spaces because males genuinely respected these boundaries, non conforming women would have very few issues. oh, and if the spaces were configured that it was mixed sex plus a women’s toilet, any person who felt that they might be uncomfortable in a women only space due to their non-conformity leading to questions can use the other space. whenever they want.

Each time this poster posts something about butch lesbians, it seems they are simply using butch lesbians as leverage for their own gain.

That's certainly how it appears. Homophobic abuse in women's toilets is a different issue to allowing anyone who identifies as female to access them.

It also reinforces their hatred towards women and complete ignorance of women’s lives that we see on each and every thread. hercatescat.

But at least the provide great examples of that ignorance for those reading. That is why we persist in answering.

The thread has been spammed with duplicate assertions that a lobby of masculine appearing women are demanding "gender" segregated facilities to protect them from being mistaken for men. The supporting information provided is actually US based lobbying for male inclusion in female facilities.

Gender based segregation can clearly not be presentation led as masculine presenting females are presenting differently to so called feminine females. The argument for "gender" segregation can only be based on internal identity which is NOT visible and is actually only definable as mixed sex.

I don't know if constant repetition is expected to become more convincing, when in fact it simply reinforces the redundancy of the argument.

I wanted to ask if non conforning women are being challenged is this supposed to be as bad as women getting attacked, filmed, raped etc by males? I don't think so. I've been mistaken for a bloke on occasion, it's never been a big issue and certainly not enough reason to suddenly allow males into female spaces.

@NiceGerbil

If there was a drive to introduce more gender neutral/ mixed sex facilities, more family changing, more changing tables in gents etc women on here would get behind it.

What we are pissed off about is our facilities being made mixed sex. We don't have enough already.

I agree it's been done in a completely haphazard way in a lot of places and those decisoons should be reversed. There is another side to this though which is that there seems to be a reasonably good case that more gender neutral spaces, if done properly can cut waiting times for women. There's an article here, somewhat tastelessly written by two blokes, but I think the reasoning is probably sound: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/01/gender-neutral-toilets-better-everybody-rage-latrine-trans-disabled

I think's what interesting is that it seems that even gender neutral toilets with no urinals have qute a big impact on waiting times for women. That feels like the answer to me, proper safe cubicles, with washbasins ideally. There's an event I used to go to that had a set up similar, ones women's toilets, one men's and one gender neutral with cublicles which did actually feel like a gender neutral space, and so was used by lots of women, and gender variant folk (it was a queer type event) and the odd bloke who would tend to behave respectfully. I think as soon as gender neutral toilets contain a urinal they will end up a de facto men's space, so increased gender neutral cubicles, either idenpently standing or in a space without urinals brings the benefit of cut waiting times without compromising safety or dignity, with the option remaining of single sex spaces for those who want them.

Came back to see what gaslighting bullshit jj came back at me with. And I also feel I should maybe say at this point, not that its relevant as such, but I am not a lesbian. People usually assume butch women are lesbian. I am bisexual and currently actually married to a bloke, however have never felt the need to go along with the stereotypes associated with my sex. I feel uncomfortable in dreses/high shoes, I can actually feel makeup on my face (possbly not, but my brain thinks I can and it feels awful!), longer hair just fucking annoys me and gets in the way, and so on. Tbf I did 'discover' this when in a relatinship with a woman, my ex actually. She made me be able to be confortable in myself, without trying to 'be like others', which I will be forever grateful for tbh. Not saying there is aything wrong with being feminine btw, its just not for me and I kind of felt I had to make an effort to do it..

Not even sure why I went into that really, as it doesn't matter if people assume I mst be a lesbian. Its just something I have noticed a lot, its rarely butch women, and usually 'butch lesbians', though I do understand most women who are butch ARE lesbian. I think its more 'acceptable' for women to be butch when they are openly lesbian, though the fucking abuse from men is shocking I know about homophobic abuse, given I was with my ex for nearly 3 years, during this time, I was both the most comfortable I have ever been, and also the most scared to be quite honest, the misogyny was off the scale too, much worse than anything I ever got before becming 'visibily gender non conforming'. Abuse, physical and verbal ramped up from men. I won't bore people with that as I am sure you can imagine.

But yeah, never ever has a woman mistaken me for a man. Men say they do, but I think this is pften just a way of them voicing displeasure that I don't conform to what they think I should. Saying women might mistake me for a man, and this means single sex areas should be mixed sex (as thats what it is, when you open it to male people really) is just ridiculous to me. And its fucking annoying being used to prop up yet another 'men are really women' type argument. Butch women are not men, and never will be. Our existance does not back up your bollocks in any way. No more that people with DSDs existing means that sex is not binary. Fucking hell, argue your own merits, instead of constantly dragging unrelated groups into it as some kind of 'gotchya', if your argument has weight, you wouldn't need to constantly 'but lesbians' 'but intersex' 'but SOME WOMEN LOOK LIKE MEN!!!!!' all the time. I know why its done of course. Because outright just sayig that 'I think some me should be able to use womens areas because some other men are mean to them and they 'feel like women' because they enjoy feminine things' would be ripped apart in seconds, and would not gain any public support. Attaching it to other causes is all that can be done, as an example, see selfID slipped through under cover of equal marriage, rather than as its own matter. Hence, 'no debate', otherwise people wake up ad smell the bullshit.

*have never felt the need to go along with the stereotypes associated with my sex.

Qualifying this bit

Have never felt the need to go along with the stereotypes, true, even from being a kid I largely ignored dresses and dolls and stuff. But ever felt free to actually go against said stereotypes, visibly until my ex. I would break a few at a time, but did follow a couple out of pressure (or in cases such as job interviews, where makeup and such is expected). I didn't agree with the stereotypes might have been a better way of putting that. It took a special woman to actually coax me out of my shell properly, I tell you. Now I would never go back in, fuck that!

I would also 100% be behind any drive to install additional mixed sex ('gender neutral' is a silly term to me, as current setups are gender neutral, noone gives a shit about ayones gender) spaces. Especially for men who take their kids out alone, who do seem to be increasing recently (lockdown excluded of course!), which in turn is good progress.

DH never had issues with baby changing, as those now seem to be mainly seperate areas anyway. Womens, mens and changing, so either sex can use the baby changing rooms (though he did once say he waited for a woman to finish, as he had gone in and she looked nervous..hes a very big guy so I get it) though maybe..some changes there might be good, an area designated for women only perhaps. The issues were more when DD got older, as he felt shit taking her into the mens, though had no choice about it., Would be much better, for him and people like him anyway, if there were family loos or something. Changing rooms are cming on in this respect, all te places near us have mens areas, womens areas, disabled areas and family. Which seems the right balance to me.