Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

[chilling19]

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

If we must provide unisex provision by taking away single sex provision, clearly the best way would be to re-purpose the Gents, so that anyone who either isn't female & therefore shouldn't be in the women's loos, or is female but doesn't like women's loos, is able to use these.

Do you not think this might escalate the problem? That a gender nonconforming woman in the women's or a gender nonconforming man in the men's might get harassed because someone decides theres a place for freaks like you now. As someone whose been on the end of that kind of shit quite a lot I could well imagine it happening. Could it make toilets an even greater site of socially enforced gender conformity than they are now, as in you have the proper mens, for men correctly perform masculinity, and the proper womens for women who correctly perform femininity and anyone who doesn't gets sent to the 'third space'.

I'm not opposed to more gender neutral spaces at all, but I don't think they are the magic bullet a lot of people say and that they may bring unforeseen problems of their own.

If we must provide unisex provision by taking away single sex provision, clearly the best way would be to re-purpose the Gents, so that anyone who either isn't female & therefore shouldn't be in the women's loos, or is female but doesn't like women's loos, is able to use these.

Do you not think this might escalate the problem? That a gender nonconforming woman in the women's or a gender nonconforming man in the men's might get harassed because someone decides theres a place for freaks like you now. As someone whose been on the end of that kind of shit quite a lot I could well imagine it happening. Could it make toilets an even greater site of socially enforced gender conformity than they are now, as in you have the proper mens, for men correctly perform masculinity, and the proper womens for women who correctly perform femininity and anyone who doesn't gets sent to the 'third space'.

I'm not opposed to more gender neutral spaces at all, but I don't think they are the magic bullet a lot of people say and that they may bring unforeseen problems of their own.

Triple donation time?

Apologies for that, glitches my end I think.

Apologies for that, glitches my end I think.

You're not listening.
You don't understand.
No-one else agrees with you.
You're horrible.
Everyone thinks you're ridiculous.
You're old fashioned.
Everyone will laugh.
You're so mean.
Oh my god, no-one thinks that any more.
I'll scream and scream until I'm sick.
Were you born in the dark ages?
You hate me.
You're not my mummy.
Listen to me.
I'm going to hold my breath now - watch.

Nothing you can say that we haven't heard before jj
And you know what the answer is still?
No.

@Facefullofcake

Triple donation time?

I think so. I'm pondering which ones to go for. Gender non conforming and lesbians top of the list.

Don't you just love when people pretend they actually give a shit about 'gender non conforming women', rather than their actual skin in the game being something very different..

I am one of these people. These butch presenting women who are apparently no different from blokes and are confused regularly and told to leave female spaces.

I still want single sex spaces as believe it or not, despite being 'masculine presenting' I have still had endless abuse from male people and have been assaulted numerous times throughout my life. Oddly, I have never been challenged by a woman on my sex, but if I was, I really couldn't care less, plus actually speaking to me would make it blatantly obvious, again, that I am female anyway.

Don't you just love when people pretend they actually give a shit about 'gender non conforming women', rather than their actual skin in the game being something very different..

I am one of these people. These butch presenting women who are apparently no different from blokes and are confused regularly and told to leave female spaces.

I still want single sex spaces as believe it or not, despite being 'masculine presenting' I have still had endless abuse from male people and have been assaulted numerous times throughout my life. Oddly, I have never been challenged by a woman on my sex, but if I was, I really couldn't care less, plus actually speaking to me would make it blatantly obvious, again, that I am female anyway.

So where do you think all the trans women in their 50s and 60s have been going all these years. More ahistorical nonsense.

Not in the ladies, that's for sure. Maybe a handful who either didn't care if they upset women, or just didn't notice.

The answer, jj is no.

Get over it.

Searching for a thread about the crowd funding and I found this.

USA, tenth most dangerous country for women.

poll2018.trust.org/

Mmm.

[quote jj1968]You say lots of women don't want single sex spaces, but you don't seem to be able to quote a single example of one of them saying this.

Here's one: digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1382&context=yjlf

Here's another: www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/whos-afraid-of-same-sex-bathrooms

And another: www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/why-the-uk-should-ditch-male-and-female-toilets-for-gender-neutr/

And more: journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0038026120934697[/quote]
The first link seems to be about 'transgender women', not women. Women, gender nonconforming or otherwise, don't seem to be the focus of this.

The second one is also about mixed sex toilets for the benefit of transgender people.

The telegraph link (behind a paywall, archived version <a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20151214104112/www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/why-the-uk-should-ditch-male-and-female-toilets-for-gender-neutr/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">here is about having mixed sex toilets for the benefit of transgender and non binary people.

The tortured language in the last one makes it difficult to work out what it's trying to say, but also seems to be about mixed sex toilets for the benefit of transgender people.

So, no, these don't seem to be articles written by women arguing for the elimination of single sex spaces because that would be better for women.

Blimey, OldCrone, that was well a and b the c of d! Thank you for doing it so we don't have to.

@Datun

So where do you think all the trans women in their 50s and 60s have been going all these years. More ahistorical nonsense.

Not in the ladies, that's for sure. Maybe a handful who either didn't care if they upset women, or just didn't notice.

The answer, jj is no.

Get over it.

Yes, they used the women's toilets and still do. You don't get to speak for all women, lots of women, most women in fact and certainly most feminists strongly disagree with you. That's why bathroom bills failed everywhere they were attempted. In Massachusetts it was put to the vote, and the law which ensures trans inclusion in toilets was upheld by approximately 1.76 million votes for and 834,000 votes against. Voters in Alaska also voted against a very mild bathroom bill that would merely have given busines the right to discriminate but not the compulsion to. The voters said no thanks. Elsewhere bathroom bills were withdrawn after public protests or failed to gain enough support to make it through legislative bodies except in North Carolina where it was brought down by a huge economic boycott of the state. The people said no. Our own government just said no. The courts have said no. Most women's and feminist organisations have said no. Trans people have the right to use a toilet inline with their gender and that has public support. You don't get to override that. That's not how democracy works.

Here are comments from American butch lesbians on a blog post discussing this issue:

"There is no reason Butch women should be harassed in the the ladies if women simply bothered to give us a second glance. There isnt anything about us that "looks like a man", because we are women. We have womens faces, breasts, hands, feet, hips, skin etc."

"I have NEVER encountered a woman in the bathroom who I felt needed to be ejected by the "authorities-that-be." If the absence of an adam's apple wasn't clue enough, most butches DO feature hips, breasts, faces, and hands that are clearly characteristic of the female sex."

"I don't normally scare women that way, well maybe when in full leather, because I have a more obvious female physique, big butt, large breasts, even though thoroughly Butch..nonetheless women hold their purses tighter and do their best to not look at me...but I just take up my space.

What REALLY bothers me, is everytime I go to a mixed gay event(meaning not women only, but even possible at a women only event), there's ALWAYS these obvious Drag Queens, and I don't even mean transitioned MTF's that take up such space in the women's bathroom doing up their hair, their drag, their whathaveyou with their obvious male voices. It really, really bothers me at times.

And it bothers me, I'd NEVER want a unisex shared bathroom, cuz I don't like peeing after males, nor would I feel physically safe. Women need to look beyond obvious feminine clothes and see us for who we are. Us Butches have been around a long time, so ignorance is no excuse!"

"I don't like men in MY bathroom. They spray and leave the toilet seats up."

dirtywhiteboi67.blogspot.com/2009/09/baby-butch-bathroom-shame.html?m=1. This seems to be a problem in the US, which can be very lesbophobic. The author is the butchest woman I have ever seen but she is still recognisably female with a second glance and by her voice. She said she has only met 5 lesbians she would describe as actually butch in her whole life. She is not GC at all but still gets called T**F. She opposes trans males entering women's spaces and writes opposing transgender ideology. Unisex toilets alongside female-only toilets could help these women, or just more awareness of butch women. Lumping women who look female as long as you look properly in with males who look male if you look properly is not fair. We should all take time and care to not mis-sex if we meet a rare butch woman (but I never have had this experience of mistaking a woman for a man). Butch women still look, sound and act like other women and they feel an awful amount of shame for inadvertently scaring any women when using the bathroom. The author of this blog talks about saying a greeting to women when entering public toilets so they know she's a woman from her voice because she hates causing fear. It's a very different attitude and from such an unusually non-PC woman who speaks her mind honestly and very controversially.

That a gender nonconforming woman in the women's or a gender nonconforming man in the men's might get harassed because

1. No, women are perfectly capable of recognising women, even if a short conversation is needed for clarity.

1. Didn't you understand "repurposing the gents"? That means there won't be a men's space. But a mixed sex space for anyone who's not a woman or who doesn't want to use the women only space.

I've suggested this on a thread with quite a few men on it and they thought it was a great solution.

And by the way people aren't necessarily opposed to bathroon bills because they care about trans rights or are because they are brainwashed woke idiots but because they can recognise an unworkable and overly authoritarian law when they see one.

Here are comments from American butch lesbians on a blog post discussing this issue:

"There is no reason Butch women should be harassed in the the ladies if women simply bothered to give us a second glance. There isnt anything about us that "looks like a man", because we are women. We have womens faces, breasts, hands, feet, hips, skin etc."

"I have NEVER encountered a woman in the bathroom who I felt needed to be ejected by the "authorities-that-be." If the absence of an adam's apple wasn't clue enough, most butches DO feature hips, breasts, faces, and hands that are clearly characteristic of the female sex."

"I don't normally scare women that way, well maybe when in full leather, because I have a more obvious female physique, big butt, large breasts, even though thoroughly Butch..nonetheless women hold their purses tighter and do their best to not look at me...but I just take up my space.

What REALLY bothers me, is everytime I go to a mixed gay event(meaning not women only, but even possible at a women only event), there's ALWAYS these obvious Drag Queens, and I don't even mean transitioned MTF's that take up such space in the women's bathroom doing up their hair, their drag, their whathaveyou with their obvious male voices. It really, really bothers me at times.

And it bothers me, I'd NEVER want a unisex shared bathroom, cuz I don't like peeing after males, nor would I feel physically safe. Women need to look beyond obvious feminine clothes and see us for who we are. Us Butches have been around a long time, so ignorance is no excuse!"

"I don't like men in MY bathroom. They spray and leave the toilet seats up."

dirtywhiteboi67.blogspot.com/2009/09/baby-butch-bathroom-shame.html?m=1. This seems to be a problem in the US, which can be very lesbophobic. The author is the butchest woman I have ever seen but she is still recognisably female with a second glance and by her voice. She said she has only met 5 lesbians she would describe as actually butch in her whole life. She is not GC at all but still gets called T**F. She opposes trans males entering women's spaces and writes opposing transgender ideology. Unisex toilets alongside female-only toilets could help these women, or just more awareness of butch women. Lumping women who look female as long as you look properly in with males who look male if you look properly is not fair. We should all take time and care to not mis-sex if we meet a rare butch woman (but I never have had this experience of mistaking a woman for a man). Butch women still look, sound and act like other women and they feel an awful amount of shame for inadvertently scaring any women when using the bathroom. The author of this blog talks about saying a greeting to women when entering public toilets so they know she's a woman from her voice because she hates causing fear. It's a very different attitude and from such an unusually non-PC woman who speaks her mind honestly and very controversially.

@Datun

So where do you think all the trans women in their 50s and 60s have been going all these years. More ahistorical nonsense.

Not in the ladies, that's for sure. Maybe a handful who either didn't care if they upset women, or just didn't notice.

The answer, jj is no.

Get over it.

Yes, they used the women's toilets and still do. You don't get to speak for all women, lots of women, most women in fact and certainly most feminists strongly disagree with you. That's why bathroom bills failed everywhere they were attempted. In Massachusetts it was put to the vote, and the law which ensures trans inclusion in toilets was upheld by approximately 1.76 million votes for and 834,000 votes against. Voters in Alaska also voted against a very mild bathroom bill that would merely have given busines the right to discriminate but not the compulsion to. The voters said no thanks. Elsewhere bathroom bills were withdrawn after public protests or failed to gain enough support to make it through legislative bodies except in North Carolina where it was brought down by a huge economic boycott of the state. The people said no. Our own government just said no. The courts have said no. Most women's and feminist organisations have said no. Trans people have the right to use a toilet inline with their gender and that has public support. You don't get to override that. That's not how democracy works.

@jj1968

And by the way people aren't necessarily opposed to bathroon bills because they care about trans rights or are because they are brainwashed woke idiots but because they can recognise an unworkable and overly authoritarian law when they see one.

Nah.

Women will be guaranteed access to female-only lavatories in public buildings, the government has said.

It's 'workable', just as it always has been.

The idea that you are so feverishly trying to impose, isn't happening.

Get. Over. It.

You don't get to speak for all women, lots of women, most women in fact and certainly most feminists strongly disagree with you.

😂😂😂 you really are the gift that keeps on giving.

Oh, and just in case you haven't quite got it yet, it will be working, without decimating the tourist industry and without, funnily enough, and sorry to disappoint, neon signs pointing at women's boobs shouting 'I have tits'.

thefederalist.com/2018/07/11/trans-bathrooms-definitely-discrimination-women-children/
An American view from Miriam Ben-Shalom.

Escape I'm going to join you and dig for Ann whenever jj claims to be speaking for feminists. Most of them in fact.

@Sexnotgender

You don't get to speak for all women, lots of women, most women in fact and certainly most feminists strongly disagree with you.

😂😂😂 you really are the gift that keeps on giving.

Feminists? I thought it was 'young feminists'. I'm sure a previous poster mentioned JJ's 'I'm in with the in crowd' sound track.