Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

@Datun

There are six and a half thousand genetic differences between men and women.

Gender non-conforming women do not look like men.

And yes, if men weren't insisting on accessing women's spaces, everyone can be assured that the people in them were female.

It's the height of enough to hold women up to support an argument that they are fundamentally opposed in the first place.

Although, tediously predictable, it has to be said.

Why aren't you listenng to the gender nonconforming women who have told you they have been harassed in women's spaces because people think they are men? Are you claiming they are all liars. Was the woman who wrote that autostraddle piece a liar? The lesbian who posted about it on here the other day? The two women kicked out of cineworld toilets?

And yes, if men weren't insisting on accessing women's spaces, everyone can be assured that the people in them were female.

Butch looking women do not get harassed in women's spaces because people think they are trans women but because people think they are men. Why on earth must you blame everything under the sun on trans women?

Omg I'm going to make another donation on jjs behalf.

Has the dilemma of women in women's toilets now grown? Not just tourism, tech and fashion? Is it really now ( drum roll) everything under the sun?

Butch looking women do not get harassed in women's spaces because people think they are trans women but because people think they are men.

Have an award for stating the bleeding obvious.

Divide and conquer is a cynical tactic jj. Where is the evidence of a movement of Butch Lesbians against single sex spaces?

@Escapeplanning

Has the dilemma of women in women's toilets now grown? Not just tourism, tech and fashion? Is it really now ( drum roll) everything under the sun?

Yep. It's all our fault. All of it. All the time. Always.

Why aren't you listenng to the gender nonconforming women who have told you they have been harassed in women's spaces because people think they are men?

This has to be deliberate, no-one this hard of thinking.

This would never be a possibility if the transgender ideology didn't insist on allowing men into female spaces.

Women's places for women. Men's spaces for men.

It's really very simple. Stop creating problems for women.

Or do you seriously think that gender nonconforming women is only something that has happened in the last five minutes? 🤣

@HecatesCats

Divide and conquer is a cynical tactic jj. Where is the evidence of a movement of Butch Lesbians against single sex spaces?

If there is one, the solutions are probably: 1) more focus on combatting lesbophobia in all its forms, which is probably what's behind problems they might encounter 2) support adding some mixed sex facilities for those that need or want them.

I've always been in favour of both of those - along with many of us, I'd guess.

I've always been in favour of both of those - along with many of us, I'd guess

Absolutely

Where can I find the list of court cases? I reckon I'm going to need it 😃

@HecatesCats

Divide and conquer is a cynical tactic jj. Where is the evidence of a movement of Butch Lesbians against single sex spaces?

It's not a cynical tactic it's a fact. And gender non-conforming lesbians were a part of the hugely successful movement against bathroom bills in the US. Here's one: www.takepart.com/article/2016/05/02/woman-shows-bathroom-safety-isnt-only-trans-concern

Here's another: time.com/4322953/north-carolina-mississippi-bathroom-bills/

Anyone got anything to say to these women? Legitimate collateral damage? Liars? Anything?

Or do you seriously think that gender nonconforming women is only something that has happened in the last five minutes?

Do you really think that homophobia and women being harassed for being gender nonconforming has only happened in the last five minutes? You think butch lesbians were just treated great in womens toilets in the 60s/70s/80s? And then trans people came along and spoiled it. Dear me, ahistorical nonsense, completely blind to the struggles of LGB people.

@Facefullofcake

I am a woman who has had shit because my gender presentation was not sufficiently feminine. I still absolutely want single sex spaces, due to a history of physical and sexual abuse by males and the resulting CPTSD , caused and still triggered by males.

I'm quoting this post for you jj, because you seem to have missed it. Why are you ignoring women who say this?

And you still haven't quoted or linked to posts on here where women have said this sort of harassment means they want everything to be mixed sex.

You say lots of women don't want single sex spaces, but you don't seem to be able to quote a single example of one of them saying this.

Oh dear jj you do seem to have trouble processing the word 'no'.

The thing is though that, being women, we've had a lifetime dealing with this. So you posture and cajole and scold as much as you like. Crack on - fill up the thread. There won't be a single thing we haven't had thrown at us before and it will not make a scrap of difference.

US articles from several years ago about culture wars in the states do not make your case jj.

I've known many a butch woman and I've yet to meet one who is still not obviously female unlike most males who identify as women who inevitably just look like a male in a dress.

@334bu

I've known many a butch woman and I've yet to meet one who is still not obviously female unlike most males who identify as women who inevitably just look like a male in a dress.

Yup. Even most transmen are still obviously female.

You say lots of women don't want single sex spaces, but you don't seem to be able to quote a single example of one of them saying this.

Here's one: digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1382&context=yjlf

Here's another: www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/whos-afraid-of-same-sex-bathrooms

And another: www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/why-the-uk-should-ditch-male-and-female-toilets-for-gender-neutr/

And more: journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0038026120934697

Do you really think that homophobia and women being harassed for being gender nonconforming has only happened in the last five minutes?

Men insisting on using women's spaces has happened in the last five minutes. Of course it has. Some of us are older than five minutes, you know.

Stop using women to justify men in women's spaces. It's absurd.

@Datun

Do you really think that homophobia and women being harassed for being gender nonconforming has only happened in the last five minutes?

Men insisting on using women's spaces has happened in the last five minutes. Of course it has. Some of us are older than five minutes, you know.

Stop using women to justify men in women's spaces. It's absurd.

So where do you think all the trans women in their 50s and 60s have been going all these years. More ahistorical nonsense.

Don't bother Datun.

I tell you what hasn't only happened in the last five minutes, men harassing women.

I am absolutely happy to support any woman who feels she would be more comfortable in a unisex bathroom.

Very useful things. Also handy for parents or carers, who need to use the loo with opposite sexed children or adults who require help.

It seems that one thing everyone on this thread agrees on is that such additional provision would be win-win.

It's only unsuccessful when it's proposed that it replaces single sex provision for women.

If we must provide unisex provision by taking away single sex provision, clearly the best way would be to re-purpose the Gents, so that anyone who either isn't female & therefore shouldn't be in the women's loos, or is female but doesn't like women's loos, is able to use these.

Obviously some blokes might feel a bit uncomfortable with that, so maybe we should check that we have their consent to make their toilets unisex, & if any of them don't like it, it's back to the drawing board, I guess...

But somehow, some people don't think women's consent to surrender their spaces or their rights is important or necessary.

These people are not people whom any sensible woman wants in the next cubicle.

All these links agree with ME. Why won't you agree with ME?!

If we must provide unisex provision by taking away single sex provision, clearly the best way would be to re-purpose the Gents, so that anyone who either isn't female & therefore shouldn't be in the women's loos, or is female but doesn't like women's loos, is able to use these.

Do you not think this might escalate the problem? That a gender nonconforming woman in the women's or a gender nonconforming man in the men's might get harassed because someone decides theres a place for freaks like you now. As someone whose been on the end of that kind of shit quite a lot I could well imagine it happening. Could it make toilets an even greater site of socially enforced gender conformity than they are now, as in you have the proper mens, for men correctly perform masculinity, and the proper womens who correctly perform femininity and anyone who doesn't gets sent to the 'third space'.

I'm not opposed to more gender neutral spaces at all, but I don't think they are the magic bullet a lot of people say and that they may bring unforeseen problems of their own.