Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

@jj1968

We walk into a public loo, we see a man in front of us, what characteristic do we look for that tells us this man is a transwoman and is therefore totally safe for us to undress in the vicinity of?

Gendered presentation is a thing you know, and one 99.9% of the population pretty much plays along with. So I'd go with that. It seems to have worked for the last 50 years.

What is "gendered presentation", exactly?

We need you to be clear, so that we can all relax, safe in the knowledge that we can still challenge men in our spaces but know when the man is a totally safe transwoman.

So Alex Drummond is not trans?

@MrsSteveMcDonald

It's well known that women are far better at identifying males than men. We've had to learn this due to the danger posed to us by men over the years. When looking at photos of women and transwomen, males find it much more difficult to tell the difference than females do.

Perhaps so, I'd be interested to see evidence, but that doesn't mean every woman is going to be correct on every occassion.

There are many countries where trans rights have a long way to go, They are usually countries where the same applies to women's rights.

Interestingly, some of the first countries to introduce self ID have a very poor record on women's rights. Malta and Ireland for example

@OldCrone

There are many countries where trans rights have a long way to go, They are usually countries where the same applies to women's rights.

Interestingly, some of the first countries to introduce self ID have a very poor record on women's rights. Malta and Ireland for example

Argentina is another, isn't it?

if someone is perceived to have undergone, be undergoing or intends to undergo gender reassignment then they meet the threshold for protection under the EA.

So not someone like Alex Drummond then? Because I perceive Alex to be a beardy bloke in a dress.

@OldCrone

There are many countries where trans rights have a long way to go, They are usually countries where the same applies to women's rights.

Interestingly, some of the first countries to introduce self ID have a very poor record on women's rights. Malta and Ireland for example

Better than Saudi Arabia? The fact is womens right and trans rights have progressed hand in hand in pretty much every country on the globe. And they are generally taken away on the same basis, see Poland for details where a mass movement of women and LGBT peoople are taking to the streets together against misogynist policies. I wonder what the gender critical movement would be doing if the same type of government emerged here. Sitting on mumsnet moaning about how they couldn't possibly protest because the protesters are all woke idiots who don't even know what a woman is probably.

see Poland for details

I can't comment for laughing at this mansplaining.

That's all well and good jj, bit you were going to tell us the characteristics that separate all men from all transwomen?

Are they still here? Ok. All the arguments have been made but nothing will stop the insistence that our consent doesn’t matter. Not staying.

How many trans women have you come across who have a typically male gender presentation?

Er.. can refer you back to karen jones again? They only wore feminine clothes on rare occasions to please family when visiting. Other than that, it was pretty much all unisex/blokey (if we must pick a gender) stuff.

FWIW, a lot of mutual friends did assume they either were or had at some point been male. My response was that they had said they were a natal woman, and it wasn't any of our business anyway, and i just continued going lalala & being mysteriously reminded of a mixture of Nicky Platt and misogynist teenage boys whenever I'd spent time with them (I trusted they were telling the truth about just being a v butch masculine looking lesbian, and was well aware of existing internalised and internalised misogyny within some lesbians, so it seemed legit.... )

Otoh, I did used to live with an actual woman who used to get the same assumptions made about her (usually by men). She was really tall, not 'conventionally' beautiful, and wore extremely female gendered (is that right?) stuff - short skirts and heels. I'm going to think a bit more about unpacking and unpicking that.

I think jj is indulging in a bit of wishful thinking that transwomen pass so well that we women don't suss that they are male.

Is this a transwoman?

I think jj is indulging in a bit of wishful thinking that transwomen pass so well that we women don't suss that they are male.

JJ always swerves to women looking like men at this point. Always. Without fail.

@334bu

I think jj is indulging in a bit of wishful thinking that transwomen pass so well that we women don't suss that they are male.

Definitely 😂

You get the odd airbrushed/photoshopped to fuck still that might pass but IRL it’s 99.999999999% obvious that they’re not women.

@ArabellaScott

Is this a transwoman?

Of course! Can’t you sense the womanly aura😂

How many trans women have you come across who have a typically male gender presentation?

What is a "gender presentation", exactly?

Most women I see in public loos are wearing jeans, trainers and a jumper. What gender presentation is that? Or do I keep wandering into the men's by mistake?

So the 'gendered presentation' of Karen White means they are a woman, right oh.

I think jj is indulging in a bit of wishful thinking that transwomen pass so well that we women don't suss that they are male.

Absolutely.

Well I'm going to watch Only Connect where at least there is some logic to the reasoning .

@PearPickingPorky

That's all well and good jj, bit you were going to tell us the characteristics that separate all men from all transwomen?

In the vast majority of cases it will be immediately apparant I'm sure.

What are the observable physical characteristics that seperate all those born female from those born male? Or trans women from non trans women? Or trans men from men? Can you be sure you would be correct 100% of the time? Can you be confident everyone could? This chap couldn't: www.itv.com/news/london/2015-01-14/lesbian-couple-ordered-out-cinema-toilets-after-being-mistaken-for-men

Things like that would likely happen a lot more if spaces were strictly regulated by birth sex which is why many gender nonconforming women don't want them. Why don't those women count?

Things like that would likely happen a lot more if spaces were strictly regulated by birth sex which is why many gender nonconforming women don't want them. Why don't those women count?

Told you it's a dead cert.

You know posters keep mentioning that women are better at men than picking up on this stuff......? If we're discussing self regulating in toilets, there usually aren't male security guards in with us making the call....

Why don't those women count?

I feel we've been here before. Why don't our feelings count? The only useful thing you do here is provide excellent evidence of why men shouldn't be involved in decisions which affect. You see our boundaries as something to break down, not something to respect.

Just before I go can I just check have we had the dangerous lesbians yet?

No, jj, stop trying to duck and dive it. Tell us HOW we tell men and transwomen apart.

Why the secrecy? You have the skill, why not share it with women?

On a totally separate point, I'm shocked that transwomen make up only 0.3% of the population (according to jj) but yet there are similar numbers of transwomen in prison for serious sex offences as there are women, despite women being more than 50% of the population.

Why do you think there is such an enormous over-representation of transwomen sex offenders, jj?

Do you think that it's because transwomen - as a class - are, statistically speaking, a higher risk group than women? Or is it that too many men are pretending to be transwomen?