Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

[chilling19]

Share token

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

You didn't comment about my post saying how locking a cubicle door and being able to phone the police after an assault will keep you safe in your single sex area. This is what we're told is suitable for women, surely the same applies to you as you keep claiming to be one?

@334bu

"Show me one report that demonstrates trans inclusive policies have put women at risk? Not isolated incidences, not conversion to mixed sex spaces, but one decent report carried out by a respectable body, ideally peer reviewed but doesn't have to be, which demonstrates that trans inclusive policies have placed women at risk?"

Show me one piece of such evidence that proves male transwomen are less dangerous to women than other males.

I've just posted one piece of evidence which shows trans inclusive policies have not caused increased risk for women.

Here's some more: www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/no-link-between-trans-inclusive-policies-bathroom-safety-study-finds-n911106

And here's some more: www.mediamatters.org/sexual-harassment-sexual-assault/15-experts-debunk-right-wing-transgender-bathroom-myth

I don't think any work has been done comparing criminality specifically however it seems pretty clear that the evidence that does exists shows trans inclusion is not a threat. Unless you can point me to a credible study that says otherwise.

(do you have any idea how much money and effort the religious right put into trying to demonstrate a threat to women from trans inclusion in the states and the various battles over bathroom bills? They failed to present anything credible. That's why they failed to convince the public that keeping trans women out of women's bathroom was necessary on safety grounds. 28 states had this fight. Every time bathroom bills were defeated.)

Men insisting on using women's facilities in the teeth of opposition are already demonstrating a complete lack of respect for women's boundaries, consent and preference.

Men like this are not weak, fragile little beings. They are determined to intimidate women into compliance.

Still, claiming that those men who are determined to access women's spaces, are, by definition, weak and er 'temperamentally' opposed to violence makes a change from claiming that not letting them in will result in the catastrophic decimation of our tourist industry.

🤣

@MrsSteveMcDonald

You didn't comment about my post saying how locking a cubicle door and being able to phone the police after an assault will keep you safe in your single sex area. This is what we're told is suitable for women, surely the same applies to you as you keep claiming to be one?

Mens toilets often only have one cubicle for a start so the situation is not really comparable. Also mens toilets are exclusively full of men, which I'm pretty sure M&S women's changing rooms are not.

Presumably trans women rapists are no higher risk to women than women rapists. Oh, wait..

The 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey (USTS) is the largest survey examining the experiences of transgender people in the United States, with 27,715 respondents from all fifty states, the District of Columbia, American Samoa, Guam, Puerto Rico, and U.S. military bases overseas. Conducted in the summer of 2015 by the National Center for Transgender Equality.

You are suggesting this sample is comparable to the UK?

Really?

I don't think you believe that yourself otherwise you wouldn't need to try to shoehorn working class women (?!?) in your justification and a snidey MRA accusation for good measure. If logic goes out the window, fling mud huh?

You know, I think I'm where I was last night.

I am not at risk in female spaces, where males, however they identify, are excluded.

I'm all for keeping it that way.

If some males are attacking some other males, in toilets or wherever, then do point me at where I can help with that. I've got a very nice teenage ds & I'd like him not to be at risk of violence from other males.

But we have ONE simple fix to keep women safer, & that's to exclude males from spaces where women are vulnerable, so I'm going with that as being a good idea.

But really, all of that is tl;dr.

Women are saying NO to sharing our spaces with males. Males who say: '...but I'm coming in anyway, so get used to it, you can't stop me'...are The Problem.

" U've just posted one piece of evidence which shows trans inclusive policies have not caused increased risk for women."

Still not posted one piece of evidence to show that a subset of males who identify as women are less of a risk to women than other males.

Anyway, the USA and LATAM trans sex workers always get hauled out to protect white males in Britain. It's been used a lot.

And then it's Bible belt accusations.

WE ARE IN THE UK.

Well, men's toilets need more than one cubicle for the men who bleed every month. I must remember to include that in my response to the consultation.

It seems to me that it is men who are excluding trans people from men's toilets. Why are you and cis male TRA's not addressing their transphobia head on.

It seems to me that it is men who are excluding trans people from men's toilets. Why are you and cis male TRA's not addressing their transphobia head on.

Completely agree.

I suggested to a wokey bloke a few years ago that maybe he should leave some san pro in the men's loos, since he was kicking off about women being upset about being
called menstruators and wishing to exclude men from female spaces, and was very vocal about loo access.

I had to explain slowly and carefully why I thought it would be a good place to provide it, and then he decided there weren't any trans men locally anyway.

@Imnobody4

Well, men's toilets need more than one cubicle for the men who bleed every month. I must remember to include that in my response to the consultation.

It seems to me that it is men who are excluding trans people from men's toilets. Why are you and cis male TRA's not addressing their transphobia head on.

Yes, and it's your husbands, boyfriends and sons doing it to us. If 52% of the population cant prevent male sexual violence then how on earth do you expect 0.3% of the population to do it? It's like telling women not to worry about sexual assault, just take up martial arts as if that is some magic bullet that will decimate the patriarchy.

@Escapeplanning

Anyway, the USA and LATAM trans sex workers always get hauled out to protect white males in Britain. It's been used a lot.

And then it's Bible belt accusations.

WE ARE IN THE UK.

You think trans women aren't economically marginalised or over-represented in sex work in the UK? And that marginalisation is part of the problem. Women overall are more likely to be sex workers than men, we don't use that as an excuse to undermine statistics on women who are victim of violence do we?

I don't see why that undermines research showing high levels of violence towards women including trans women

Your quoted research didn't include any women. You are getting confused.

Stop expecting women to sort this out for you. Just stop. We are not the world's mummy.

But are transwomen more likely to be sex workers than other males?

Yes, and it's your husbands, boyfriends and sons doing it to us. If 52% of the population cant prevent male sexual violence then how on earth do you expect 0.3% of the population to do it? It's like telling women not to worry about sexual assault, just take up martial arts as if that is some magic bullet that will decimate the patriarchy.

I certainly hope it isn't my male relatives who are the problem. Collectively, though, it is males. Being violent to other males.

It's not our problem to fix, & certainly not at the cost of our own safety.

Go sort it out with the other blokes. It's your issue, not ours, & you have your own spaces - which we certainly aren't encroaching on - to resolve your problem.

Crack on, & leave us out of it. Thanks.

Trans-inclusive policies certainly have been shown to increase risk as the victims of Karen White and Katie Dolatowski show. There are many groups of males who are far more vulnerable than transwomen, such as disabled men, and transwomen in the UK are one of the safest subsets. Even if they weren't, women are not a human shield. No is enough and this quibbling is despicable.

Bless you all for spending so much pointless energy on debating with someone who is determined that women and girls have no rights to boundaries, privacy and safety .
Your commitment is appreciated.

@334bu

But are transwomen more likely to be sex workers than other males?

Yes, no doubt one reason why trans women, just like all women, are at risk of sexual violence from men.

Still, claiming that those men who are determined to access women's spaces, are, by definition, weak and er 'temperamentally' opposed to violence makes a change from claiming that not letting them in will result in the catastrophic decimation of our tourist industry.

Don't forget tech and fashion.

It also occurs to me that we are rather expected to take on trust that some males who identify as/present as/gosh who knows, maybe a skirt & eyeliner occasionally - are in fact at risk in male facilities.

The argument, such as it is, is that one transwoman attacking children cf Dolawatowski, is statistically insignificant & we need 'loads' more evidence.

Let's flip this, shall we?

Where's the evidence that male persons in male toilets are at risk if they are somehow 'gender non conforming'?

Must be dozens of incidents, surely, to support the argument that the only possible way to keep these poor chaps safe is to allow them into female facilities.

Mens toilets often only have one cubicle for a start so the situation is not really comparable.

If it's full you wait until it's free. I'm not sure what the problem is?

Eh? Male sex workers are a reason for male on female sexual violence? That's a new angle.