Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

@RedDogsBeg

Hmm, but mixed sex as well as women's would not validate would it. Which is the goal really isn't it.

Indeed, but there is also the aspect of women acting as human shields and being collateral damage, that's a must.

Where is this hard, factual, provable evidence that Men's toilets are so dangerous, awash with the bloodied and broken bodies of TW? There isn't any, there isn't even any to suggest men feel uncomfortable with TW in their toilets and going by what male family members and acquaintances of mine say, who have all at one time or another been in public toilets and seen TW in there, no-one gives a damn, they just get on with what they are in there to do and leave.

According to our friend all the women and special non gender conforming women, (not to be confused with the non special non gender conforming women on here), that they know none of them mind being in mixed sex spaces so they would be in there with our friend and fulfill all the validation, human shield and collateral damage needs, but somehow that's still not good enough. Now what does that say about someone when they want to force consent on others or make them unwilling participants in their choices.

The largest survey of trans people in history found that 0.6% of trans people (139 respondants) had been sexually assaulted in a toilet in the last year. Unfortunately this isn;t broken down between trans women and trans men but it does point out that trans women of colour were the most at risk group. Presumably the vast majority of these assaults took place when trans women used men's toilets. This suggests that trans women who use mens toilets have a very high chance of being sexually assaulted in a toilet in their lifetime. 1% of trans people were also violently assaulted in a toilet in the previous year: www.transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/USTS-Full-Report-FINAL.PDF

That is something that men need to address and to fix. It is not our job to sort out male violence.

Are any similar stats for gay men available?

This suggests that trans women who use mens toilets have a very high chance of being sexually assaulted in a toilet in their lifetime. 1% of trans people were also violently assaulted in a toilet in the previous year:

I believe that there would be plenty of support for those who feel they need their own provisions. However, NOT utilising women's single sex spaces and not using women as support humans in any way. Also, we keep telling you that you need to address this issue with the men. Where is the campaigns for men to accept all males in whatever presentation that male chooses? Never seen one yet.

Stop making this an issue for women to sort out.

Now, now, jj. Thats a lot of presuming. You do seem to make a lot of assumptions.

I also feel sympathy for men who are assaulted after football matches but it's not my issue to sort out. Male violence, male problem. Women are about the least best placed group to intervene. And while transwomen may feel at risk in the gents, at least there won't be the physical disparities to deal with as there are for women faced with predatory or aggressive males in a confined space.

You say you're worried about safety jj so you'll be pleased to know that I've got a solution that will keep you safe and stop you feeling that you need to use the women's toilets.

When women said that we wouldn't be safe in M&S changing rooms now they are letting men in, we were told that it's ok as the cubicles have locks and we can call the police if we're assaulted. I'm sure that will reassure you as the cubicles in the mens should have locks too and you also have the option of calling the police. If locks on the door and ringing the police makes a mixed sex area safe then I'm sure it will work exactly the same in your single sex male toilets.

@ErrolTheDragon

Are any similar stats for gay men available?

I can't find any statistics on assaults of gay men in toilets. I imagine it's very rare. Also as gay men are often not visibly gay men then I would imagine rates of sexual assaults by strangers in public situations would probably be comparable to straight men.

@ArabellaScott

Now, now, jj. Thats a lot of presuming. You do seem to make a lot of assumptions.

My assumption is merely that those attacks were largely committed by men in men's toilets. I would find it very suprising if 0.6% of trans people had been sexually assaulted by a woman in a public toilet in the last year.

So you agree that it's males that are violent? Yet still think women should be happy to let them in our single sex spaces?

@Winesalot

This suggests that trans women who use mens toilets have a very high chance of being sexually assaulted in a toilet in their lifetime. 1% of trans people were also violently assaulted in a toilet in the previous year:

I believe that there would be plenty of support for those who feel they need their own provisions. However, NOT utilising women's single sex spaces and not using women as support humans in any way. Also, we keep telling you that you need to address this issue with the men. Where is the campaigns for men to accept all males in whatever presentation that male chooses? Never seen one yet.

Stop making this an issue for women to sort out.

How on earth are 0.3% of the population supposed to prevent male violence when 52% of women have been unable to. This is such a shit dismissive response. Worried about being raped, not my problem, just sort out male violence. If it were that easy we wouldn't be having this conversation would we?

@MrsSteveMcDonald

So you agree that it's males that are violent? Yet still think women should be happy to let them in our single sex spaces?

I think the policy of trans women being able to access single sex spaces should continue yes. There is no evidence of it causing harm. Here's a report looking at four different cities all of which are trans inclusive and didn't find a single incident related to that in four years: www.policefoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/PF_Research-Brief_JULY-2017-FINAL-1.pdf

So you agree that it's males that are violent? Yet still think women should be happy to let them in our single sex spaces?

Not only that, but he knows that women struggle to do anything about male violence, on account of being physically weaker than men. And we absolutely shouldn't say no to the one's in skirts or ...?

Presumably the vast majority of these assaults took place when trans women used men's toilets.

I'll just point out when women show you statistics and reports you have a million and one reasons why they're wrong/stupid/should be ignored, so not sure why you feel women should take your indicated reports seriously?

Actually I do. I feel very strongly that no one should be forced to use facilities in which they are unsafe, in which privacy and dignity are not respected.

I just think that this applies to female people too. And that forcing female people to give up their spaces to try and fix this for males achieves nothing, and is profoundly sexist, as well as completely ignoring and dismissing female needs and issues as far lesser than male ones.

This is about male violence. It needs fixing. Additional to and different from provisions should be made for males unsafe in male spaces.

Its a wholly different issue from some males want to use female facilities and don't think females have any business saying no to males/ expecting their own spaces.

And again: why are female spaces going to be safe for TW with any male who wishes self id'ing into them? You said yesterday gender neutral spaces weren't safe for TW - which I'm very prepared to take seriously, and won't be so rude as to just deny or handwave away.

@testing987654321

So you agree that it's males that are violent? Yet still think women should be happy to let them in our single sex spaces?

Not only that, but he knows that women struggle to do anything about male violence, on account of being physically weaker than men. And we absolutely shouldn't say no to the one's in skirts or ...?

I spent a large part of my younger life in hostels, I've seen lots of male on male violence close up. The truth is the vast majority of men cry, beg, curl up on the floor or run away when confronted with violence. I've seen tiny scrawny men kick the crap out of big lumbering blokes. The truth is temperament is much more of a factor than physical strength in resisting violence. The vast majority of men will not put up a fight especially if they are not used to violence. The ones who do tend to be those who either enjoy fighting recreationally like football causals, those involved in violent criminal activity, men trained to box, martial arts or fight some other way and men who have been in the army. It is a gender thing by and large.

(Not trying to negate your point btw, just commenting on the idea that most men have a chance of fighting back due to their physical size)

0.6% sexually assaulted in toilets and all by men. Given the huge percentage of women sexually assaulted by men every year and who also do not share the advantage of a male body which all transwomen have and which makes them far less vulnerable to other men, I am sure jj would agree all people with make bodies should be excluded from female only spaces.

I'll also add.... can you really not see how very sexist and paternalistic - in fact downright dehumanising to women - it is for a male person to tell female people that their shared feelings, issues, needs, challenges are irrelevant, and male people will just do what they want until male people decide amongst themselves that there's sufficient evidence of harm to females that they ought to possibly consider changing their course of action?

You have realised that female people are actually equally human to males, and not some kind of servant species?

" male" bodies not make

@MichelleofzeResistance

Show me one report that demonstrates trans inclusive policies have put women at risk? Not isolated incidences, not conversion to mixed sex spaces, but one decent report carried out by a respectable body, ideally peer reviewed but doesn't have to be, which demonstrates that trans inclusive policies have placed women at risk?

oh ffs.

The average male can strangle pretty much any female with bare hands.

This is absolutely not true of the average female with any male.

I do get that your sympathies are wholly, entirely and only with males but let's keep a grip on reality here or what's the point.

You have linked to a 2015 U.S. TRANSGENDER SURVEY to quote stats about sexual harrasment.

It also says this:
Sex Work and Other Underground Economy Work
• Respondents reported high rates of experience in the underground economy, including
sex work, drug sales, and other work that is currently criminalized. One in five (20%)
have participated in the underground economy for income at some point in their lives—
including 12% who have done sex work in exchange for income—and 9% did so in the past
year, with higher rates among women of color.

You are using US data which is not reflective of the UK. This is a poor tactic. Why do that? You claim there's no UK support by quoting US bathroom bills and quote US data showing a high proportion of sex workers to undermine UK women.

At the same time as the well worn "it never happens in the UK".

@334bu

0.6% sexually assaulted in toilets and all by men. Given the huge percentage of women sexually assaulted by men every year and who also do not share the advantage of a male body which all transwomen have and which makes them far less vulnerable to other men, I am sure jj would agree all people with make bodies should be excluded from female only spaces.

Studies have consistantly shown that trans women face sexual violence from men at similar rates to women. So presumably being born male is of little advantage.

Show me one report that demonstrates trans inclusive policies have put women at risk?

a) why should I bother? You'll dismiss it anyway

b) again..... you as a male are demanding that females prove to your satisfaction their sufficient danger for males to possibly consider not using female spaces in whatever way they see fit. Females talking about needs, feelings, rights, equality - means nothing, does it? Females just having a right to space of their own, means nothing does it? Do you really see space as so wholly in male ownership to be gifted to women only if males see a need?

Are you really expecting female people to be ok with this kind of sexism on your part?

"Show me one report that demonstrates trans inclusive policies have put women at risk? Not isolated incidences, not conversion to mixed sex spaces, but one decent report carried out by a respectable body, ideally peer reviewed but doesn't have to be, which demonstrates that trans inclusive policies have placed women at risk?"

Show me one piece of such evidence that proves male transwomen are less dangerous to women than other males.

@Escapeplanning

You have linked to a 2015 U.S. TRANSGENDER SURVEY to quote stats about sexual harrasment.

It also says this:
Sex Work and Other Underground Economy Work
• Respondents reported high rates of experience in the underground economy, including
sex work, drug sales, and other work that is currently criminalized. One in five (20%)
have participated in the underground economy for income at some point in their lives—
including 12% who have done sex work in exchange for income—and 9% did so in the past
year, with higher rates among women of color.

You are using US data which is not reflective of the UK. This is a poor tactic. Why do that? You claim there's no UK support by quoting US bathroom bills and quote US data showing a high proportion of sex workers to undermine UK women.

At the same time as the well worn "it never happens in the UK".

I'm not aware of any research carried out specifically in the UK. However this survey had a huge sample size and I see no reason to think things would be that much different here. And yes, trans women are economically marginalised. So are working class women who also considerably over-represented amongst sex workers. I don't see why that undermines research showing high levels of violence towards women including trans women. These are the kind of arguments you usually hear from MRAs.