Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

And even if gender neutral toilets were introduced then it doesn't solve the safety problem because trans women will be expected to use the same toilets as the men who rape and sexually abuse trans women at the same rate they do other women.

I think jj is trying to say that mixed gender toilets won't work because men who say they are women would be too scared to use them.

Why should I be expected to share the women's toilets with obvious men?

If someone truly passes (and I see a lot of men who are obviously men) then I have no problem them using the ladies because I wouldn't even know.

Most TW do not pass at all. So, no, they shouldn't be in women's spaces.

Well, there's also that FOI request about male prisoners serving sentences for violent crime, & the proportion of them identifying as transwomen.

At a sex offenders unit near me about 5 of the inmates 20%of total self id' d as transwomen. That's a pretty high percentage for such a small group. Are you happy for them to use female toilets?

can I suggest the 'this never happens' thread? And the results from Target about the increase in voyeuristic crime when they permitted self ID into women's changing rooms? And the assault on the little girl in a toilet in Scotland? And the UK's own statistics on 90% of assaults on women happening in mixed sex spaces?

The target study was specifically about mixed sex changing rooms, not trans inclusion, was not peer reviewed and the evidence it was based on was incredibly weak. The assault in Scotland was awful but I very much doubt banning trans women from women's toilets would have prevented it. As I've already discussed, the chances of someone being assaulted by a trans woman in a woman's toilet are millions to one. That's why you can't throw loads of examples of it happening at me. If you could I may reconsider my view, but until evidence of increased risk is demonstrated then I think the consequences, for both trans people and gender non-conforming people, are too great. Lots of gender nonconforming women have told you they don't want this. One on this thread. Why don't those women count?

What's the difference between 'mixed sex' & 'trans inclusion'?

@Facefullofcake

GRC/time served/post surgery or not, I do not wish to share toilets with Karen Jones.

For the record, someone who knew that we knew each other (and what Karen did, but not that I had found K's history out and had stopped speaking to them as a result), and that I was in need of a female chaperone, recommended that I ask Karen to be my chaperone.

They didn't understand why I found that distressing in any way - even after I explained what I knew - from the crimes committed, through to the fact that I needed a same sex not same gender chaperone .

You seem to have a lot in common with them, JJ.

I do not want to have to share intimate spaces or support services with anybody who has been convicted of rape or attempted rape. Ever.
By default those people are exclusively male, irrespective of gender. Howson you work around that? I DGAF that Karen is likely in a minority - one bad apple is one too many to keep the barrel safe.

I see you're back again jj. Can you answer my question that you didn't answer last night?

You say a lot about trans people using toilets "inline with their gender", but you still haven't explained what you mean by 'gender' here. You obviously don't mean sex. I asked you this about 3 times last night but I didn't get an answer. How would you define 'gender'?

Yes. You are correct, there is that study. However, the current statistics for transwomen serving time for sex offences and violent offences is proportionately much higher than women serving time for these crimes.

I should have been clearer.

If you’d like I can link up those statistics but I am sure you have seen them.

Of course, the stats have had to be done by someone checking records because, of course, if they were transwomen at the time of prosecution (maybe at time of arrest even) the crime is recorded as a female committing the crime. But of course, reading these threads the way you do, you would have seen all that information before.

Just another issue to be addressed.

Why don't those women count?

Let me just check this, you have spent weeks derailing any thread you can, ignoring concerns of many women on here, and you are having a go at us for not listening to other women?

You really are ridiculous. You are a man whose sole purpose on this forum is to tell women that we must allow men in our spaces. That's it. You have no empathy with women whatsoever.

@CorvusPurpureus

What's the difference between 'mixed sex' & 'trans inclusion'?

Well trans inclusion is what we have now, where a fraction of a percentage of transitioned trans women use toilets inline with their gender. So few in fact I bet you only come acrosss it about once a year if that. Whereas mixed sex toilets would likely to be 50% men and would be designed to cater to men with urinals etc.

A bit of reading for you jj.

Half of all transgender prisoners are sex offenders or dangerous category A inmates

Either men who identify as transgender are exceptionally violent people, or a lot of violent men 'identify as' transgender even though they are not really transgender. Which is it jj?

@OldCrone

I see you're back again jj. Can you answer my question that you didn't answer last night?

You say a lot about trans people using toilets "inline with their gender", but you still haven't explained what you mean by 'gender' here. You obviously don't mean sex. I asked you this about 3 times last night but I didn't get an answer. How would you define 'gender'?

Sorry but I've been accused several times of derailing threads so I'd rather try stick to the topic of the op. I'm pretty sure I've answered that before anway, along with define women, define sex, etc etc

Well trans inclusion is what we have now, where a fraction of a percentage of transitioned trans women use toilets inline with their gender. So few in fact I bet you only come acrosss it about once a year if that. Whereas mixed sex toilets would likely to be 50% men and would be designed to cater to men with urinals etc.

I'd think the urinals would be quite handy, what with the penises & everything.

So no actual difference, then, in that anyone who wanted to could use either?

jj968 As you are so keen to allow males into female spaces can you give me details of any research which proves male transwomen are less dangerous to women than other males?

Lots of gender nonconforming women have told you they don't want this.

What's a 'gender nonconforming woman'? How would I know whether I was one?

@334bu

jj968 As you are so keen to allow males into female spaces can you give me details of any research which proves male transwomen are less dangerous to women than other males?

I think how this works is we have to let jj & any other male in until an unspecified number of women have been assaulted, & when we hit whatever that number is, he will 're consider' whether we have legitimate concerns or not.

I'm not convinced this is a very good idea, but apparently we are not permitted to say NO to it.

Sorry but I've been accused several times of derailing threads so I'd rather try stick to the topic of the op. I'm pretty sure I've answered that before anway, along with define women, define sex, etc etc

No, you haven't. But if you can't answer, at least it's good that you've admitted that you can't. It's not a derail, it's fundamental to the topic of this thread. You're saying that men with a female/feminine 'gender' should be allowed in female toilets. I need to know what you mean by 'gender' in order to understand your argument.

You obviously don't mean sex, because people can't change sex. What does a man with a female/feminine 'gender' look like? How would I know their gender if I see a man in a women's toilet?

Lots of gender nonconforming women have told you they don't want this.

I believe that I am a gender nonconforming woman. I DO want single sex toilets.

I think how this works is we have to let jj & any other male in until an unspecified number of women have been assaulted, & when we hit whatever that number is, he will 're consider' whether we have legitimate concerns or not.

Yes. Any number of instances will not matter to a person determined to hand wave the risk away. There have been reported instances in the UK that are documented... but these will always be minimized.

@OldCrone

Lots of gender nonconforming women have told you they don't want this.

What's a 'gender nonconforming woman'? How would I know whether I was one?

I guess for these purposes it comes down to whether you have faced abuse or harassment because your gender presentation is at odds with that which is typical for what someone assumes your sex is. If you never have you are probably visibly pretty gender conforming.

But the fact is a lot of women have had shit because their gender presentation is not sufficiently feminine. And many have spoken out against the policing of toilets based on birth sex because they think it will leave them liable to increased harassment.

I am a woman who has had shit because my gender presentation was not sufficiently feminine. I still absolutely want single sex spaces, due to a history of physical and sexual abuse by males and the resulting CPTSD , caused and still triggered by males.

@CorvusPurpureus

Well trans inclusion is what we have now, where a fraction of a percentage of transitioned trans women use toilets inline with their gender. So few in fact I bet you only come acrosss it about once a year if that. Whereas mixed sex toilets would likely to be 50% men and would be designed to cater to men with urinals etc.

I'd think the urinals would be quite handy, what with the penises & everything.

So no actual difference, then, in that anyone who wanted to could use either?

Well lots of trans women can't use urinals whether down to surgery or hormones, so men's toilets are not designed for many trans women.

So no actual difference, then, in that anyone who wanted to could use either?

Well in theory perhaps you could argue no difference, in practice however we have had trans inclusive toilets for decades, it is normal practice in many parts of thw world, and those toilets are not half full of blokes. Just because something could happen it doesn't mean that is what will happen.

The vast majority of women face abuse and harassment because they are female. Hardly any woman has not experienced such harassment from male strangers just because they are female. So why would we want males in places where we are vulnerable?

"..........something trans women have done for decades is now abusive and so expect them en masse to put their safety and dignity at risk. I just can't see how that is going to happen, espcially because the number of people who object to trans inclusive toilet policies appear to be pretty tiny."

And yet you are demanding that biological women and girls put THEIR dignity, privacy and safety at risk by allowing males into their private and safe spaces. Why does your perceived right to these things trump theirs? And for what it's worth I don't believe that the number of woman who object is tiny. Most of them probably put up and shut up because that is what a lot of woman do.

I guess for these purposes it comes down to whether you have faced abuse or harassment because your gender presentation is at odds with that which is typical for what someone assumes your sex is. If you never have you are probably visibly pretty gender conforming.

I'm just wondering what sort of 'gender presentation' would be atypical for a woman. Can you give some examples? You could post some pictures if that's easier than describing. I just can't imagine what you're describing, and I can't imagine women getting abuse or harassment for dressing in a 'masculine' style, because it's quite normal for women to dress like that.