We are now non trans women.....

[InTheShadowOfTheMushroomCloud]

According the lovely Mr T

@testing987654321

People always say that I’m very like a cat -

Do you have a daily mad half hour where you run around randomly?

Including thundering down the garden path at top speed and not breaking your stride as you hurl yourself through the cat flap?

@MiladyRenata

We think like women We feel like women We act like women We dress like women

Our biology is "wrong", but we had no say in that. So why exclude us?

How does one think, feel, act like and dress like women?

There's no set mould of womanhood.

I don't think like a woman, I have no 'womanly' thoughts, I think and act as myself. I hardly wear makeup or high heels. I clean out drains, do a spot of DIY, cook all the meals.

Being a women is not a stereotype, it's not a thought nor feeling. We come in all different shapes and sizes, we all have different experiences. Women are not some homogenised standard. We are born female and grow into adult human females. We share biology and experiences that are unique to our sex.

So no, transwomen are not women no matter how many times you say it. I have sympathy for your dysphoria but that doesn't mean I will budge up and make room for you nor. The woman means something and it belongs to adult human females.

We think like women Perhaps women like Ruth Hunt / Lisa Nandy et al who think men - especially rapists - should be in women’s prisons- if they say so, but 4 billion women and girls don’t actually have a mono brain with identical womanly thoughts...

We feel like women How would you know? What like that itch in the vulva?

We act like women Now your having a laugh... Male entitlement galore...

We dress like women Hmm...many dress - and are allowed to dress - in ways women would never do or get away with.

Our biology is "wrong" No it’s not. If your biology was female - you wouldn’t exist, you would be your sister. Complain to your Dad.

Next...

Another STEM woman here - who also finds the whole "thinking like a woman" thing incredibly offensive.

I have a PhD in computer science, Am I a man?

I am logical, rarely emotional, I make decisions based on reason, practicality and pragmatism. Am I man?

When I get dressed it will jeans and T shirt rather than combat trousers and T shirt - not walking the dogs this morning so don't need the multiple pockets. Am I man?

I have not possessed, or worn, makeup for over 40yrs, I cut my own hair during lockdown with the dog clippers. Am I man?

One of today's jobs is to get MY toolbox out and replace a couple of door handles, Am I a man?

I don't enjoy chick flicks, I'm a sci fi geek who actually went to conventions. Am I a man?

All of the above reflect my personality, nothing to do with my sex. I was always a science geek, always loved sci fi, and thank the goddess, was encouraged in both of those by my dad, who happily taught me how to change a plug.

I am incredibly angry for all those girls out there, with a similar intellect & personality to mine, now being told that they must really be boys. It's insulting and abusive, IMO, to insist that a personality type is hard wired to either sex.

Woman is a discrete biological category. It doesn't include men.

Diane, I think as soon as we accept that we are men and start demanding san bins in the gents the problem will be resolved much more easily

Non arsehole.

Why do I never see debates or discussions anywhere about trans men and their rights? Why is the argument always about trans women? Genuine question. For example, I've never seen an argument about trans men joining mens sport.

@MiladyRenata

We think like women We feel like women We act like women We dress like women

Our biology is "wrong", but we had no say in that. So why exclude us?

How you think, feel, dress and act is completely irrelevant. Unfortunately for you, the biology part is the only thing that actually matters.

What do all women feel like? Well if we grope our nethers we feel pretty similar. That biology for you though so doesn't count

What do all women act like? Well dame helen mirran acts a lot better than me so....

What do all women think like ? We can't agree if sexism exists , we don't agree on the acceptability of cauliflower cheese on a roast dinner, we don't agree If TWAW.

We act like women

That really is hilarious. In their heads, maybe, but when most of these types put on the makeup/outfit it just emphasises their maleness.

I could kind of buy that "in the wrong body" list for male homosexuals (non-trans or trans) - you can kind of see that often male homosexuality correlates to certain typically-female behaviours, and vice versa. And I can see how that might make sense biologically - there must be a mechanism that makes people attracted to a particular sex, normally the opposite one, and maybe it can affect other aspects of behaviour at the same time, so same-sex attracted people are more likely to have other typically-opposite-sex behaviour.

The gay rights movement could have gone down the "wrong body" route; it would have been less successful than what we did, but it would have worked better as a model than trying to apply "wrong body" to trans rights.

For trans people, there appears to be no evidence of natural opposite-sex behaviour at all, aside from any homosexuality. Heterosexual trans people just seem to end up exaggerating typical behaviour of their sex.

"Wrong body" is applied to trans because it's what trans people want to be true, despite not remotely matching observation. It could have matched observation for homosexual people generally, but they didn't want it (aside from some trans). Fortunate, because it leads to the same metaphysical problems whereever applied.

In some places like Iran, they do apply "wrong body" to homosexuals generally. Not good.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Back in the distant past, Tatchell was quite a pleasant bloke. He seems to have grown out of it now, though.

I know, what happened? Used to be a big fan 😞

@Morgan12

Why do I never see debates or discussions anywhere about trans men and their rights? Why is the argument always about trans women? Genuine question. For example, I've never seen an argument about trans men joining mens sport.

Because they’re socialised as women and don’t SHOUT

Why do I never see debates or discussions anywhere about trans men and their rights?

There are a growing number of transmen who are vocal about the medicalising of children and teenagers. Ie, they are very much against it which counters many transwomen who advocate very much for it.

There are many reasons why, including that cross-sex hormones and puberty blockers have greater and irreversible consequences for females.

Back in the distant past, Tatchell was quite a pleasant bloke. He seems to have grown out of it now, though

How distant are we talking here? He wrote that '9 year olds having sex with adults can give great joy' letter to The Guardian in 1997.

MiladyRenata:
We think like women
We feel like women
We act like women
We dress like women

Our biology is "wrong", but we had no say in that. So why exclude us?

That is interesting and seems heartfelt.
There is a useful manner of speaking, ‘We think …,’ which may be appropriate:

We think we think like women
We think we feel like women
We think we act like women
We think we dress like women

-- Likewise, ‘We think our biology is “wrong”, but we had no say in that. So why exclude us?’

Indeed, it may not be your fault. For some of you, it may be very sad that you think that. The solution – to avoid such sadness – is not to emphasise what it is you think you are; rather it lies in making explicit what may be implied in this particular way of speaking but is often left tacit, as follows:

We think we think like women … but we are mistaken
We think we feel like women … but we are mistaken
We think we act like women … but we are mistaken
We think we dress like women … but we are mistaken

– And, very importantly, ‘We think our biology is wrong, but we are mistaken’.

Why is this latter important? Because the mistake is there so easy to see: it is just not possible for biology to be wrong (which is why ‘wrong’ was originally scare-quoted, of course). This being so, appreciating its truth is a simple matter … thus aiding clarification of the other mistaken thoughts and hence to seeing they are so mistaken.

I wonder, MiladyRenata, if you can consider the possibility that you are mistaken in what you think?

I am just gobsmacked watching that - the sheer confidence of male socialisation!
The fact that Tatchell has probably read a poor summary of a paper on female advantage (long distance running/extreme endurance sports is about the only place where there seems to be an advantage) and confidently goes onto a TV program as a pundit to try and repeat and proclaim this as somehow making what is effectively mixed sex rugby fair and safe? He clearly knows nothing about rugby (goals) nothing about sports science, and confidently proclaims the science is still out ignoring the recent robust and transparent work done by the group on international rugby. Jon Gaunt was just laughing at him when he was going on about 'little delicate feminine transwomen' doing rugby with no advantage.

How can you let ideology blind you to reality so much?- and how can you have the sheer misplaced confidence to go onto a program and discuss it without even a basic grasp of the subject?
Truth, honesty and competence seem really out of fashion.

I’m a woman - I’d never say ‘we’ in the context of the whole of womankind. Lord I don’t even think/dress/act the same as my actual sisters.

KnightsofColumbusThatHurt
"Back in the distant past, Tatchell was quite a pleasant bloke. He seems to have grown out of it now, though"
How distant are we talking here? He wrote that '9 year olds having sex with adults can give great joy' letter to The Guardian in 1997.

Early to mid 1970s was when I knew him, back in the GLF days, and he was ok then: a lot less creepy than a few of the people involved.

When I met him again in the late eighties or possibly very early nineties (he was one of the people on a rather mad local TV programme about among other things the planet Mars being mistaken for a UFO by the people who lived in a local cul-de-sac and had bought a telescope, and the Nazca lines, and Jenny Randles on UFOs in general -- I think she was probably why he was there, and certainly why I was because I was dragged into her group for support, she was one of my trans friends) we had a thoroughly friendly talk before they started filming, in the course of which a truly homophobic elderly woman sitting next to us came to like him a lot and agreed with him about almost everything, and was very surprised when she discovered who it was she'd been happily chatting with. He was ok then too, not obsessive and loopy.

MiladyRenata
Our biology is "wrong", but we had no say in that

Oh god, me too. I do so sympathise.

Why did I have to be born with so little tooth enamel, and an immune system that didn't work terribly well when I was a child, and a tendency to serious myopia, and inherited arthritic joints, and a thyroid that packed it in when I was in my fifties, and an inherited tendency for my heart suddenly to cease functioning properly? I had no say in what genetic conditions I was going to have to deal with, and IT'S NOT FAIR!

You have to do something about it for me, right now. Yes, YOU. It's your responsibility. I expect immediate action from you to include me in all the activities that I want.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

MiladyRenata Our biology is "wrong", but we had no say in that

Oh god, me too. I do so sympathise.

Why did I have to be born with so little tooth enamel, and an immune system that didn't work terribly well when I was a child, and a tendency to serious myopia, and inherited arthritic joints, and a thyroid that packed it in when I was in my fifties, and an inherited tendency for my heart suddenly to cease functioning properly? I had no say in what genetic conditions I was going to have to deal with, and IT'S NOT FAIR!

You have to do something about it for me, right now. Yes, YOU. It's your responsibility. I expect immediate action from you to include me in all the activities that I want.

Glad someone else feels that their biology is a wrong. I've been stuck with bad eyesight all my life, the possibility of being a carrier for an inherited medical condition that runs through my family and a deviated septum that causes chronic sinusitis and migraines.

We really need to identify out of these problems: it's out human right. Unfortunately the medical establishment oppressively prevent me, and that is literally killing me.

*our human right.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

We really need to identify out of these problems: it's out human right. Unfortunately the medical establishment oppressively prevent me, and that is literally killing me.

I hear you, Asking. I hear you.

I think like an Olympic high jumper
I act like an Olympic high jumper
I dress like an Olympic high jumper
I feel like an Olympic high jumper

My biology is wrong (I'm 5' tall) but I had no say in that so why exclude me.