We are now non trans women.....

[InTheShadowOfTheMushroomCloud]

According the lovely Mr T

The other thought that occurred to me reading Miladys posts was that Milady, and similar people, don't even identify with the stereotype of being women. Milady identifies with the stereotype of being a what a man considers to be a young attractive woman. Which in men's eyes is actually a very small and specific subset of women anyway. I've never heard of the mythical lady brain feeling affinity with my octagenarian mother for example...

@caughtalightsneeze

The other thought that occurred to me reading Miladys posts was that Milady, and similar people, don't even identify with the stereotype of being women. Milady identifies with the stereotype of being a what a man considers to be a young attractive woman. Which in men's eyes is actually a very small and specific subset of women anyway. I've never heard of the mythical lady brain feeling affinity with my octagenarian mother for example...

Very much this.

It's performative woman-ing, for the male gaze and for attention, which is a social currency some people crave.

I crave attention for my work achievements and my personality. My outfits are worn for me, not for others. My make up is worn for me, not for others. These choices may be either undermined by or approved by the patriarchy, but they are my choices. But always with a backdrop of the patriarchy that is out of my control. Defined by the language of the patriarchy. Girly or tomboy, madonna or whore, girls girl or man's girl. Not the million shades of grey between polar, black and white, rigid definitions.

I am a woman. I am not performing as one or buying into stereotypes the patriarchy has perpetuated. I am me, shaped by my whole life experience of being female.

Now my existence, even the language that describes my biology and experiences, is being erased to cater to the feelings of male born people. It is terrifying to watch.

@caughtalightsneeze

The other thought that occurred to me reading Miladys posts was that Milady, and similar people, don't even identify with the stereotype of being women. Milady identifies with the stereotype of being a what a man considers to be a young attractive woman. Which in men's eyes is actually a very small and specific subset of women anyway. I've never heard of the mythical lady brain feeling affinity with my octagenarian mother for example...

Or with aspects of the female role which have to do with cleaning, laundry, caring for children. Giving birth is mentioned as something desirable but not the care of infants.

I agree that references to being a young and attractive woman, as a transition goal, even when the person is middle-aged or older, are not uncommon. That concerns me as the goal is not realistic.

Facts don't change because someone wants to change a label. I personally don't know how to feel like a man or a trans person, but I know what woman means to me. If the word woman was swapped for ciswoman I will still be me (fully female) I will still be different from the new (trans)women group. The labels could be swapped but not the difference.

Transwomen cannot fully merge or replace women. They are different.

Giving birth is mentioned as something desirable but not the care of infants.

And, naturally, it's the sanitised version of giving birth. The sort you see on a TV drama in the early evening. A sudden breaking of watera, then a bit of a sweaty brow and squeezing your birth partners hand a bit too hard.

Whereas my first eperience of birth was so horrific that I cried like a baby when they told me my baby was a girl because I couldn't bear the thought of her ever having to go through what I went through. She's a teenager now and is repulsed by the idea of having a baby and deep down I kind of hope that she never does because as much as I love her, I cannot bear the thought of her going through the horrors of pregnancy and birth and the mental pain of suddenly becoming a non-person once you are a mother.

Not to mention the piles, the incontinence, the fecked up muscles and stretch marks, and all the other joys of birthing a child. I'm sure that doesn't fit into the Hollywood story either.

^'If you honestly, genuinely think that women are being "oppressed" then maybe there is no frame of reference for a rational conversation. It's the opposite to how I see things.

Which is a pity, but it is what it is.'^

So much for 'we think like women', eh? Clearly you just think you think like a woman but actually haven't the faintest idea of how most women experience life.

Transwomen ARE women.

It would be helpful if someone, anyone, could describe properly in what way transwomen are women. And not by reference to things like lipstick and shiny hsndbags or even surgical interventions.

I am deeply concerned that public policy is being used to roll back women’s rights on the basis of something as nebulous as a feeling. Women are easily identified by genetics, physical characteristics and biology - all things observable and constant over millennia.

Transwomen, on the other hand, make many demands on the basis of their own thoughts and some glittery accoutrement. The capture of public policy and language with such insubstantial evidence can only really be explained by the exercise of male privilege.

If TW want to claim women’s spaces as their own, I’d expect a better argument than, “because I say so”; except that of course, that has always been the patriarchal position.

I am a woman. I am not performing as one or buying into stereotypes the patriarchy has perpetuated

When we have seen online meetings that include transgender people (one in particular being a secure women’s ward manager) - the body language seems to be very ‘girly’ lots of hair flicking and giggles.

The women in these calls are being wholly professional and I don’t think would dream of ever behaving like that.

@WhataFarce76

So women aren't oppressed now? Female genital mutilation Lower levels of pay for doing the same job Being forced into unwanted marriages Honour killings Sexual harassment Shoulder the majority of the household burden Human trafficking Risk of rape and domestic violence Objectification of women and unrealistic beauty standards Inability / difficulty to vote in some countries Educational inequality and opportunities in some countries Navigating career vs motherhood

Many more.

But I know you think we all have an easy time, dress shopping and having our nails done. Maybe the odd pillow fight.

Just what I was thinking, @WhataFarce76! What an enlightening thread.

Oh dear. After a brief flash of apparent honesty and apology Milad shows true colours. There's repeat coming onto threads to drop inflammatory comments, then stropping off. The TW thread intrusion was not to 'ask' anyone to not misgender. It was sarcastic and targeted and aggressive, towards people who are considering escaping that kind of sexist crap. Increasingly it's becoming apparent that there's a misogynist here with envy of women's clothing and submissive role, and absolutely NO idea of female experiences. It's delusional. If you believe being female is all about the clothes and role-play, and you get off on that, you end up jealous and aggressive and trying to get something you can never have. So you attack women, in a strangely circular pattern.

Well done Milady. That mask just slipped. You've rather given yourself away and any attempt to claim 'feeling, behaving and thinking" like a woman, while denying their oppression, renders you a laughing stock. As for 'dressing', I think we all know what that's about...

Could it be any more offensively stated? Pampering, primping, shopping and getting fucking nails done.

And on other threads we have another male who seems to be male but very vocal for trans who also continues to tell us what the female experience is ... and it also doesn’t sound like the truth. There seems to be a common element of violent bullying as teens which is terrible and so very sad to think these people experienced this. However, it does not change facts.

And it does not change the facts that these experiences were a male only experience. There is plenty of evidence girls experience assault, rape, and ceaseless bullying. Again, usually by males. So why did these males view women as being ‘pampered’ and such? Maybe they brought deeply into a fantasy presented by media? I certainly never had the privilege of buying into that particular fantasy and I know very few women who did.

But these posters continue their self declared role, it seems their aim is purely to shame actual women about standing up for our rights and protections.

and it also doesn’t sound like the truth

And it doesn’t sound anything like the truth that should be.

@brendansbuddy

Oh dear. After a brief flash of apparent honesty and apology Milad shows true colours. There's repeat coming onto threads to drop inflammatory comments, then stropping off. The TW thread intrusion was not to 'ask' anyone to not misgender. It was sarcastic and targeted and aggressive, towards people who are considering escaping that kind of sexist crap. Increasingly it's becoming apparent that there's a misogynist here with envy of women's clothing and submissive role, and absolutely NO idea of female experiences. It's delusional. If you believe being female is all about the clothes and role-play, and you get off on that, you end up jealous and aggressive and trying to get something you can never have. So you attack women, in a strangely circular pattern.

Yes, it's just more of the overwhelming irony involved in this issue.

Hotly denying that women are oppressed by males, whilst being a male person yourself and attacking them because of your own negative feelings towards them.

This has been an amazingly enlightening and informative thread full of the words of wonderful women ... and the unmasking of MR , who has repeatedly demonstrated for us all who they really are.

@WhataFarce76

Not to mention the piles, the incontinence, the fecked up muscles and stretch marks, and all the other joys of birthing a child. I'm sure that doesn't fit into the Hollywood story either.

And the fact that after nearly 40 years after delivering my twins ( one a still birth - yeah fuck you SANDS) who were literally pulled out of my sliced vagina, I suffer from irreparable constant urinary incontinence .... they dont seem to want to colonise that! But then again I have seen LARPING involving adult nappies...

But the point of that poster was that none of that stuff is real or matters or is oppression, because woman to that poster is no more than their own personal projection of all the things they (using their own words) envied and became resentfully jealous of feeling they couldn't have because of gender stereotypes. It isn't 3 dimensional, it doesn't reflect female experience, there isn't the faintest interest in hearing about female experience.

The word 'pampered' tells you the degree of anger and resentment, the distorted perception of what 'woman' is, and it's made clear this is not about 'joining' women, but taking away the specific desired (and to female people very superficial) bits to own. This is not about wanting to join and merge which would require engagement with and respect on both sides; this is about a hostile takeover bid. Males are men and males are women and female humans - have finally got what was coming to them for their years of pampered privilege, and deserve to be stripped of it and punished. They're disenfranchised and there's satisfaction in it. They're too low on the pecking order to even engage with when they won't share in the vision of what they are told they now are: as the poster said, they will never agree to see female people in any way other than the way they have chosen to do so, and they have the social power to instruct females of this and walk away .

The poster has been quite honest about it.

Wow.

Just wow.

I don't even know where to start on all that ^ so I won't try.

BTW, England won the Women's Six Nations yesterday, and if they win next week will have won back-to-back grand slams. That story was buried down the front page of the BBC Sports app this morning below some stories that were 2 days old. Sounds odd? But they're just oppressive, pampered non-transwomen, so who cares yeah? Once we get some proper women involved, maybe the men will give a shit

Transwomen ARE women. You can still be a feminist and support trans women you know

Ridiculous

@Katypyee a woman is what gave birth to you. HTH.

Transwomen ARE women.

No, they're not.

nepeta
I agree that references to being a young and attractive woman, as a transition goal, even when the person is middle-aged or older, are not uncommon. That concerns me as the goal is not realistic.

I suspect there comes a point in everybody's life, men, women and probably bug-eyed monsters too, at which they realise that they are no longer young. Even if nothing specific has happened to them which ages them suddenly or destroys some youthful ability, when they wake in the morning they feel stiff for a few minutes, or one of their knees gives a twinge when they go downstairs, or they start to notice more hair in their hairbrush and less on their head, or (and) any one of dozens of other signs that their body is slowly but inexorably running down. And they don't like it -- who would?

So they run away from it however they can think of: botox, short-lived fitness campaigns and diet changes, trying to attract a younger partner in order to appear younger themselves.... It doesn't stop them ageing but it makes them feel for a time as if they are not.

Some of these efforts are risible, and some are damaging to themselves and others.

You can still be a feminist and support trans women you know

Indeed, you can.

But not if that support has to be at the expense of all women.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

You can still be a feminist and support trans women you know

Indeed, you can.

But not if that support has to be at the expense of all women.

This.

Unfortunately the feminist organisations that do "support" are actually "prioritising". They can't support any pro female legislation, opportunities, and even basic communication that doesn't also include males, thereby making male participation a fundamental goal of their activities. These orgs become engulfed in conflict for women who don't want to prioritise males or be forced to take part in role playing with them, ie what you would call "support".