We are now non trans women.....

[InTheShadowOfTheMushroomCloud]

According the lovely Mr T

Yes indeed.

I think that poster has told us quite clearly who they are, many times over. Message received.

And another one who has told us quite clearly who he is is the Mr Tatchell that this thread was started about.

He can do one as well.

I’m sorry I posted on the trans widows forum. I was upset about misgendering and asked a poster to use female pronouns to describe a trans woman. But that wasn’t the right place to engage in debates about appropriate pronouns. So I entirely understand the decision to remove my post and I won’t post there again.

I’ll get back to you later on the other, very interesting points you have raised.

You have no right whatsoever to set the terms of a support thread for women who have experienced abusive relationships. Get some self awareness.

All the abuse and gaslighting of women described in the trans widows threads, but it's the women using correct sex pronouns to describe the person they married and who fathered their children, that is really unbearable

Not quite sure how someone can read through a thread of transwidows talking about their abuse and ill treatment and instead of feeling compassion for them, and maybe even shame if similar behaviour has been engaged in, only be upset enough to berate one of them for her use of pronouns.

Ah, this mysterious woman essence is quite the conundrum. Why exclude someone like that? Why indeed.

@MiladyRenata

I’m sorry I posted on the trans widows forum. I was upset about misgendering and asked a poster to use female pronouns to describe a trans woman. But that wasn’t the right place to engage in debates about appropriate pronouns. So I entirely understand the decision to remove my post and I won’t post there again.

I’ll get back to you later on the other, very interesting points you have raised.

What about when biological women are 'mis-gendered' by calling them 'non trans', 'cis', 'uterus havers', 'menstruators', 'chest feeders' etc? When we can't use our own word to describe our genetic and biological reality? Why does YOUR experience of being 'mis-gendered' trump my own basic right to be called what I am - a woman? A plain old woman, without any stupid unnecessary qualifiers?

@TinselAngel

All the abuse and gaslighting of women described in the trans widows threads, but it's the women using correct sex pronouns to describe the person they married and who fathered their children, that is really unbearable

I was upset about misgendering and asked a poster to use female pronouns to describe a trans woman

Wtf?

The depths that are sunk to to ensure validation never cease to amaze me.

Milady's arguments all centre on feelings. Milady feels a certain way and so society has to treat them in the way they desire. That's not how societies should work.

Lots of people in society have all sorts of feelings and desires, many of these conflict with the feelings and desires of others in that society.

in strict hierarchical caste systems, the feelings, wants and needs of those in the top tiers are more important than those in the tiers below. In a parliamentary democracy, the theory is that laws are voted in to ensure the greatest good for the greatest number of people and all people are equal under the law. eg if the evidence shows that it's safer for most people to have a speed limit of 70 not 90 then it doesn't matter how much you like fast cars, or even how brilliant a driver you are at 90mph, it's "rule utilitarianism" a rule made to benefit the majority and ensure the safety of the most people and you have to stick with it. Do we infringe on your rights to enjoy driving at 90mph,? yes we do because not everyone is a safe driver at 90mph. Tough, we don't say "oh yes, racing driver man, you are safe to drive at 90mph" we require everyone to stick to the law.

It's shocking to me to see this approach to safety being turned on its head by the trans rights agenda. I don't care how lovely you are, if you are male then you have no place in spaces reserved for females - spaces that we fought hard for and exist for our SAFETY and dignity. The evidence for male violence against women is clear and unequivocal, the evidence that predators exploit all loopholes is clear and unequivocal. The law has to ensure that female-only spaces are protected, and that law must be upheld.

When it comes to the safety of women and girls though it's pretty obvious that right now it's the caste system in operation - we simply are not considered as valuable as males, so their wants and feelings are more important than our safety. The hierarchy is crystal clear, isn't it?

That's why I'm a feminist

NoLady

Infiltrating a safe space and then saying sorry doesn’t make it ok.

Infiltrating is a very gentle word for "barging in unwanted", I feel.

@MiladyRenata

I’m sorry I posted on the trans widows forum. I was upset about misgendering and asked a poster to use female pronouns to describe a trans woman. But that wasn’t the right place to engage in debates about appropriate pronouns. So I entirely understand the decision to remove my post and I won’t post there again.

I’ll get back to you later on the other, very interesting points you have raised.

You say sorry in retrospect but the utter entitlement and total lack of empathy shown in your prior behaviour and language still stands. You read through a thread laced with the pain and devastation of a woman, her raw grief and confusion, and your reaction was to make the thread about her ex husband's narrative. To prioritise her ex husband's feelings over hers. To ask of her something that at the time was not punishing or hurting anyone - this wasn't a thread that was to be sent to her ex husband. It was a safe space and you made it about the feelings of someone born male.

You have said sorry but I think what would be more appreciated by women is a commitment to try and empathise with their feelings. To genuinely be open to accepting you do not understand the female experience that women have from birth and how different that is to the experience of a trans woman. Just as you would assert women can't understand the struggle of a trans women, so too must you accept that trans women can't understand the struggle of being born female, growing up female and living as a female from day dot. It is a totally different experience to being a trans woman.

The lack of willingness of many TRAs to empathise with womens lived experience is chilling.

@stillsomewhatsheldonesque

NoLady

Infiltrating a safe space and then saying sorry doesn’t make it ok.

Particularly when the apology is only forthcoming as a desperate attempt to hand back the arse that is comprehensively being handed to one.

I was upset about misgendering and asked a poster to use female pronouns to describe a trans woman.

I am continuously upset about mis-sexing and the misogynist appropriation of the word “woman“ which you, among others, make a habit of. But I have never yet gone onto a forum by/for trans people and rebuked them for so doing, much less onto a support thread for people who have been through severe emotional abuse that I myself have not experienced.

The fact you even thought this was ok and felt entitled to do it in the first place is just another demonstration of your male privilege. And maybe also narcissism.

You didn’t want to start a debate. You wanted to control the words that women use when speaking to each other of their own, painful, experiences. Control. That’s what it’s all about. (Biologically) male people and their belief they have the right to control (biologically) female people.

That mindset is as old as time, and misogynist to the core.

@dianebrewster

Milady's arguments all centre on feelings. Milady feels a certain way and so society has to treat them in the way they desire. That's not how societies should work.

Lots of people in society have all sorts of feelings and desires, many of these conflict with the feelings and desires of others in that society.

in strict hierarchical caste systems, the feelings, wants and needs of those in the top tiers are more important than those in the tiers below. In a parliamentary democracy, the theory is that laws are voted in to ensure the greatest good for the greatest number of people and all people are equal under the law. eg if the evidence shows that it's safer for most people to have a speed limit of 70 not 90 then it doesn't matter how much you like fast cars, or even how brilliant a driver you are at 90mph, it's "rule utilitarianism" a rule made to benefit the majority and ensure the safety of the most people and you have to stick with it. Do we infringe on your rights to enjoy driving at 90mph,? yes we do because not everyone is a safe driver at 90mph. Tough, we don't say "oh yes, racing driver man, you are safe to drive at 90mph" we require everyone to stick to the law.

It's shocking to me to see this approach to safety being turned on its head by the trans rights agenda. I don't care how lovely you are, if you are male then you have no place in spaces reserved for females - spaces that we fought hard for and exist for our SAFETY and dignity. The evidence for male violence against women is clear and unequivocal, the evidence that predators exploit all loopholes is clear and unequivocal. The law has to ensure that female-only spaces are protected, and that law must be upheld.

When it comes to the safety of women and girls though it's pretty obvious that right now it's the caste system in operation - we simply are not considered as valuable as males, so their wants and feelings are more important than our safety. The hierarchy is crystal clear, isn't it?

That's why I'm a feminist

Hear, hear

I'm guessing "sorry" in the time honoured sense of "sorry I got caught," in that even the most insensitive of posters probably realises that crossing that particular line again will result not only in a deletion but a strike... and I suspect having that opportunity to harrass women blocked off is something some people might feel very sorry about, in the sense of "disappointed I'm not getting what I want."

I suspect you’re right, Cara.

@MiladyRenata

I’m sorry I posted on the trans widows forum. I was upset about misgendering and asked a poster to use female pronouns to describe a trans woman. But that wasn’t the right place to engage in debates about appropriate pronouns. So I entirely understand the decision to remove my post and I won’t post there again.

I’ll get back to you later on the other, very interesting points you have raised.

Not sorry enough to refrain from repeating it here however.

You read through a thread laced with the pain and devastation of a woman, her raw grief and confusion, and your reaction was to make the thread about her ex husband's narrative.

In fact, to step onto a known respected safe space thread where a woman in distress was seeking a listening ear, support, a place for her feelings to be heard which she lacks anywhere else, and to make her confidences and requests for help about how her words made you feel. And as a by product attempt to control her to better suit your needs. But you're still making is about how her feelings and self expression made you feel as an excuse and reason for doing it.

Do you really not see the socialisation at work in this? That instead of empathy or compassion or connection with females even in that amount of distress, just the focus on what you need and telling them/correcting what they're doing wrong?

MiladyRenata

If you truly thought like a woman you would never have posted what you did.

Stop telling us what it means to be a woman and start listening.

You may also want to reflect on what message you sent to those struggling, traumatised women when you entered that thread and made it clear that they may have no space where a male will not try to enforce control over their language, their perception, their narrative, their reality, their personal history, in order for that male to have their needs met.

Because the females obviously don't matter and must always be sacrificed to the meeting of more important male needs.

Sorry Tinsel, I was bloody disgusted that that happened to you and the others here. It's an absolute illustration in a nutshell of what you all have to deal with.

But you're still making is about how her feelings and self expression made you feel as an excuse and reason for doing it

And what you would notice, if you actually cared, is that tinsel welcomes support from women on that thread. Sometimes she comments elsewhere that the thread can be a bit quiet, and women answer "oh I do read it but I don't want to intrude, it feels like it should be mostly trans widows supporting each other".

That's the level of respect women have here for each other's experiences.

Sorry Tinsel, I was bloody disgusted that that happened to you and the others here. It's an absolute illustration in a nutshell of what you all have to deal with.

I'm grateful to MNHQ for continuing to enable us to have a space where trans widows thoughts and language are not policed.

I am a woman, but I am not a trans widow, and I hesitated long and hard before posting there -- and then only in response to a direct question that I could answer, and later because I couldn't help being so blisteringly angry and upset by something I read. Even then I felt I was intruding, and felt awkward after I had done it

How could you be so CRASS, unlady?

I believe a person's mind matters more than their body in determining what kind of person they are allowed to be.

Milady said this upthread. I agree, it's very clear that Milady's mind is determining what kind of person they are.