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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

We are now non trans women.....

398 replies

InTheShadowOfTheMushroomCloud · 23/10/2020 20:20

According the lovely Mr T

We are now non trans women.....
OP posts:
TinselAngel · 25/10/2020 20:26

@VaggieMight

I do hope it doesn't get deleted.

It probably would be. That thread is invaluable and although disingenuous posters have disrupted it before, it is powerful enough as it is.

I mean I hope this thread doesn't get deleted.
Winesalot · 25/10/2020 20:27

If you honestly, genuinely think that women are being "oppressed" then maybe there is no frame of reference for a rational conversation. It's the opposite to how I see things.

And right there Is the truth at last. Thank you for at last being honest with us and yourself. As a woman with a lifetime of oppression, I have to laugh at this ludicrous statement. Do you have any self awareness at all?

VaggieMight · 25/10/2020 20:35

I mean I hope this thread doesn't get deleted.

Hopefully the mods will see it's a clear derail attempt from a single poster.

WeeBisom · 25/10/2020 20:50

Milady, if you’re not just an anti trans troll and are really a trans women do you think this kind of talk endears women to your cause ? I have been told over and over again to listen and talk to trans women, and every time I have I’ve come away with the disturbing impression that they really don’t give a shit about women and certainly aren’t women themselves.

peanut2017 · 25/10/2020 20:53

Women of the world all I can say is thank you so much for writing such intelligent, well thought out posts.

Such a shame that the OP hasn't bothered to give women on this thread the respect to actually engage in conversation.

But your last post has truly revealed you for the sexist, misogynistic man that you truly are.

You posted all of 4 times and left little pieces for people to bite and the women who responded gave such insightful posts about what it means to be a woman.

You will never know what it's like to to a woman because you are not one and will never be.

NotBadConsidering · 25/10/2020 21:00

I don’t see the point in trying to get this whole thread deleted with a merail. Why? Are some people trying to protect Peter Tatchell from the world seeing who he truly is and what he truly believes? Because that misogynistic creepy cat is well and truly out of the misogynistic creepy bag.

Kit19 · 25/10/2020 21:00

Well hopefully next time Milady turns up in these boards, no one will bother indulging their need for attention which seems to be the only reason they come here

RedDogsBeg · 25/10/2020 21:11

peanut2017 I think you are confused, the OP of this thread is not the person you describe that is a completely different poster.

nepeta · 25/10/2020 21:14

*I think I'm talking to a brick wall here.

If you honestly, genuinely think that women are being "oppressed" then maybe there is no frame of reference for a rational conversation. It's the opposite to how I see things.

Which is a pity, but it is what it is.*

I recently read about the millions of girls who are missing in India because of sex-selective abortions. Those abortions exist because women and girls are valued less in the society, because the cultural arrangements mean that daughters are a burden requiring dowries and ultimately working for the old-age security of the parents of their future husbands and not for the old-age security of their own parents. It is biological sex AND the gendered roles which are attached to biological sex which determine women's oppression in the global sense.

There are many countries still where women don't have equal legal rights even on paper and in more countries paper equality is not at all obeyed. It is called female genital mutilation for a reason, and that reason is both to try to make wives less able to enjoy sex so that they stay faithful (thus guaranteeing paternity) and to make sex more enjoyable for men in the case of the harshest form of FGM.

Although the status of women (biological women) is much better in Europe and North America, many of the underlying beliefs and expectations are very much alive. It is mothers who are expected to sacrifice income and career prospects for the family and it is women who are expected to run all the non-market activities inside the families as well as to be the emotional caregivers for everyone else and also the providers of sexual services for men (in that women are seen as the sex which owns everything sexual and therefore should hand it out to those (hetero men) who do not own it but need it).

And the belief that women are allowed to be emotional while men are not (which Renate stated in an earlier comment) is actually an odd reversal of the way anger in men is not viewed as an emotion at all (men are more allowed to be angry than women) and also of the way women's presumed excess emotions are used to bar them from various roles (military leadership, say), to discount their concerns as hysteria, say, and to argue that women are not logical while men are.

Then there are the ways sex differences play more directly into the way women's lives are patterned. The threat of sexual assault is greater for female-bodied or female-looking people, and violence is much more likely to come from people who are stronger and more aggressive and therefore more difficult to defend against. The book Invisible Women recounts many examples of the way the world is built for men as the default and how those ways make women's lives harder even when they are not explicitly aimed at doing so. And the whole aspect of pregnancy, birth and the care for small children is not part of how the human default is viewed so few societies arrange for it in a fair manner unless women really protest and demand that.

Under all that is the ubiquity of a mild general level of misogyny in most cultures I am familiar with. It's more like a contempt than outright hatred (which exists, too, of course), and it tends to make the concerns traditionally labeled as female less visible in general. It is also so diffuse and so common that it takes effort to really spot it.

Datun · 25/10/2020 21:17

Women can say it over and over. But there is nothing as effective as watching it happen in real time.

caughtalightsneeze · 25/10/2020 21:17

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Cascade220 · 25/10/2020 21:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

nepeta · 25/10/2020 21:27

I ended up badly envying girls and women for what I saw as a pampered and privileged position where females are expected to be emotional and passive whereas males have to be tough and competitive.

Thanks for the qualification "for what I saw as." Because being expected to be passive is really very close to being expected to be a doormat anyone can wipe their feet on, and because being expected to be emotional can mean that those emotions can then be ignored because they are interpreted as stereotypical behaviour caused by someone's sex and not necessarily expressing a real pain caused by something that should be fixed.

But the 'pampered' word really made me took notice, because I, too, started this journey trying to understand trans women better and went to several trans sites to learn more, and I met that same thinking fairly often as one of the reasons mentioned for MtF transitioning:

Envy about supposed advantages girls have over boys such as being allowed (actually, forced, in some cases) to wear pretty dresses (which make outdoors play harder and are cold in northern climates) or about being allowed to go to girls' sleepovers (because, astonishingly, wild sex seems to take place in those!!).

I also met the argument that women are privileged because they can always find a willing sexual partner (which assumes that women want that and don't care who that partner is, of course), and the transitioners wanted that.

To me learning about this made it clearer why some appear to identify as women but not with women.

CharlieParley · 25/10/2020 21:31

I think I'm talking to a brick wall here.

No, MiladyRenata, we are human beings. Women taking time out of their busy lives to share their own experiences and feelings as women. And you, claiming to "think, feel and act like a woman", cast us as a lifeless, monolithic obstacle to your desires. I think that is rather telling. The typical response of women when other women share their experiences as women is most definitely not that. Come to think of it, I've not seen that happen in half a century of interacting with women and girls.

If you honestly, genuinely think that women are being "oppressed" then maybe there is no frame of reference for a rational conversation. It's the opposite to how I see things.

Yes. That comes from being born into and socialised as part of the oppressor class. Male privilege accrues to every male being on account of their sex. Even the sensitive, bullied males have it. They may not actively participate in the oppression of females by males, but they benefit from the results of that oppression all the same. You don't need to be aware of it for that to be true.

The truth is that the oppression of women and girls by men and boys is one of the oldest forms of oppression on the planet. It emerged more than 6000 years ago with the birth of the supremacy of fatherhood.

Women and girls have only had even rudimentary rights for about 1.67% of that time. And that was all in the last 100 years. No wonder our rights are precarious. We couldn't own property, we couldn't even own ourselves. We had no rights at all. And now, before we have even reached parity with men, the rights we have are under attack.

It is perfectly rational to analyse what happens to women and girls on this planet today and understand the observed treatment of women and girls as oppression.

It starts before birth with the statistically significant occurrence of sex-selective abortions of female fetuses even in Western countries, and it continues after death in the way women are written out of history to this day.

And from birth to death we endure oppressive practices, systemic discrimination and endemic male violence.

At the very least, I would expect someone who claims to identify as a woman to identify with us. And that requires at a bare minimum the realisation that seeking to understand the reasons underlying the bad things that happen to female people living in a male-dominated world is a perfectly rational impulse. I'm not asking you to accept it, by all means refuse to believe women are oppressed, but framing a radical feminist analysis of our treatment as irrational is for me the embodiment of male privilege.

Of course, it has become rather common for Western men's rights activists, and even some males from teen age onwards not aligned with that movement, to deny that women and girls in Western democracies are oppressed on the basis of their sex. They might concede we face a bit of discrimination and sexism, but oppression? No way. That's just hyperbole. Women can vote, work, have their own money. For crying out loud, not even a husband is allowed to demand sex anymore!

Nonetheless, they are wrong. On a personal, interpersonal, institutional and cultural level we continue to face exploitation, violence, marginalisation and even a form of cultural imperialism in the form of gender (the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with our sex).

As a group and as individuals, men benefit immensely from women's contributions to society, our abilities, our support, our productivity. And yet these contributions continue to be devalued, to such an extent that besides not even being paid for much of this labour, we are then penalised for the time we provided this unpaid labour that benefited society when we return to work.

Which is a pity, but it is what it is.

It is a pity, there we agree. But I don't think we feel that pity about quite the same things.

peanut2017 · 25/10/2020 21:39

@RedDogsBeg not confused just made a mistake meant to tag @MiladyRenata

TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair · 25/10/2020 21:56

Could Milady be any more of a MRA if Milady tried?

But no, being a woman is about flicking your hair, going 'Yass queen,' having men worship you and being powerful. I have so got this womaning thing wrong.

dianebrewster · 25/10/2020 21:57

@CharlieParley

I think I'm talking to a brick wall here.

No, MiladyRenata, we are human beings. Women taking time out of their busy lives to share their own experiences and feelings as women. And you, claiming to "think, feel and act like a woman", cast us as a lifeless, monolithic obstacle to your desires. I think that is rather telling. The typical response of women when other women share their experiences as women is most definitely not that. Come to think of it, I've not seen that happen in half a century of interacting with women and girls.

If you honestly, genuinely think that women are being "oppressed" then maybe there is no frame of reference for a rational conversation. It's the opposite to how I see things.

Yes. That comes from being born into and socialised as part of the oppressor class. Male privilege accrues to every male being on account of their sex. Even the sensitive, bullied males have it. They may not actively participate in the oppression of females by males, but they benefit from the results of that oppression all the same. You don't need to be aware of it for that to be true.

The truth is that the oppression of women and girls by men and boys is one of the oldest forms of oppression on the planet. It emerged more than 6000 years ago with the birth of the supremacy of fatherhood.

Women and girls have only had even rudimentary rights for about 1.67% of that time. And that was all in the last 100 years. No wonder our rights are precarious. We couldn't own property, we couldn't even own ourselves. We had no rights at all. And now, before we have even reached parity with men, the rights we have are under attack.

It is perfectly rational to analyse what happens to women and girls on this planet today and understand the observed treatment of women and girls as oppression.

It starts before birth with the statistically significant occurrence of sex-selective abortions of female fetuses even in Western countries, and it continues after death in the way women are written out of history to this day.

And from birth to death we endure oppressive practices, systemic discrimination and endemic male violence.

At the very least, I would expect someone who claims to identify as a woman to identify with us. And that requires at a bare minimum the realisation that seeking to understand the reasons underlying the bad things that happen to female people living in a male-dominated world is a perfectly rational impulse. I'm not asking you to accept it, by all means refuse to believe women are oppressed, but framing a radical feminist analysis of our treatment as irrational is for me the embodiment of male privilege.

Of course, it has become rather common for Western men's rights activists, and even some males from teen age onwards not aligned with that movement, to deny that women and girls in Western democracies are oppressed on the basis of their sex. They might concede we face a bit of discrimination and sexism, but oppression? No way. That's just hyperbole. Women can vote, work, have their own money. For crying out loud, not even a husband is allowed to demand sex anymore!

Nonetheless, they are wrong. On a personal, interpersonal, institutional and cultural level we continue to face exploitation, violence, marginalisation and even a form of cultural imperialism in the form of gender (the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with our sex).

As a group and as individuals, men benefit immensely from women's contributions to society, our abilities, our support, our productivity. And yet these contributions continue to be devalued, to such an extent that besides not even being paid for much of this labour, we are then penalised for the time we provided this unpaid labour that benefited society when we return to work.

Which is a pity, but it is what it is.

It is a pity, there we agree. But I don't think we feel that pity about quite the same things.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
testing987654321 · 25/10/2020 21:58

it's like arguing with a person who fervently believes you should put her cutted up pear back together.

Smile that should go in classic quotes. Do we have such a thing on Mumsnet?

HecatesCats · 25/10/2020 22:02

Perfect Charlie

dianebrewster · 25/10/2020 22:03

@TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair

Could Milady be any more of a MRA if Milady tried?

But no, being a woman is about flicking your hair, going 'Yass queen,' having men worship you and being powerful. I have so got this womaning thing wrong.

to be fair @TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair most of us women seem to have got the womaning thing all wrong. Funny that. 🤔
CharlieParley · 25/10/2020 22:03

@SpartacusAutisticus

Wow, what a fab thread, thank you all the women of FWR on this thread for your articulate and erudite posts, and a huge cheer for MR whose posts are so illuminating.
Seconded. I enjoyed all the posts patiently explaining women's views and experiences very much. They made for a truly interesting and insightful thread. Thank you all for taking the time!
TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 25/10/2020 22:06

Wow. WOW. That was some major mask slippage right there!

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 25/10/2020 22:08

Not that it was much of a mask in the first place... Grin

KnightsofColumbusThatHurt · 25/10/2020 22:15

If you honestly, genuinely think that women are being "oppressed" then maybe there is no frame of reference for a rational conversation. It's the opposite to how I see things.

I don't even understand why you posted this? Do you hate women so much that you don't even have the strength to stop the mask from slipping off completely?

Catmaiden · 25/10/2020 22:35

I think the posts by LR very succinctly sum up exactly why the whole TWAW ideology is just so totally wrong.

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